literarydiscussions.myfreeforum.org

Sitaram · Site Admin Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 1079

mahendra_ku: hi sitaram

mahendra_ku: good noon

literarydiscussions: hello!

mahendra_ku: I have posted the first message

mahendra_ku: did u see?

literarydiscussions: excellent!

mahendra_ku: thank u

mahendra_ku: it is yourinspiration

literarydiscussions: ah, thank you

mahendra_ku: i hope to get it more rich

mahendra_ku: with your help

literarydiscussions: i am about to check there now

mahendra_ku: which genre of literature r u really fascinated with?

literarydiscussions: well, i suppose, postmodern things, like Thomas Pynchon...

mahendra_ku: oh yes

mahendra_ku: how post modern literature encapture the nonliterates oral traditions in its gamut?

literarydiscussions: very interesting question!

literarydiscussions: i think that there are passages in Pynchon's Gravity's Rainbow which have the quality of Australian Aboriginie "Dream Time"

mahendra_ku: perhaps theis is the most important aspect of human liteature

literarydiscussions: primordial

mahendra_ku: yes

mahendra_ku: and on some black literature also

mahendra_ku: but black literature is equally modern and primordial

mahendra_ku: What Michel Fucooult speaks of non authorship is in folklore thatis collective memory

literarydiscussions: before i met you, i did not give thoughts to these important issues...

literarydiscussions: yes.... Carl Jung deals much with this

literarydiscussions: and also,.... that american professor, who died a while ago.. i must think of his name

mahendra_ku: Alan Dundes, Richard Dorson, from US and now many feminist and gender

mahendra_ku: work on collectivememory

mahendra_ku: and expressive tradition

literarydiscussions: joseph campbell

literarydiscussions: on myth

mahendra_ku: yes

mahendra_ku: but old myths need to be reinterpreted in modern context

mahendra_ku: to solve the inner conflict of the individual or the group

mahendra_ku: i think thai is needed

literarydiscussions: i read homer in english translation, and i read some in ancient greek

mahendra_ku: oh

mahendra_ku: what about ramayana and mahabharata?

literarydiscussions: i watched all 28 episodes of Ramanand Sagar's Ramayan in Hindi, with English Subtitles

literarydiscussions: adn 30 of the 60 episodes of Mahabharat

mahendra_ku: That is a great epic

mahendra_ku: with classic values

mahendra_ku: One thing unique of ramayana and Mahabharata is its social acepttance

mahendra_ku: it is stillbelieved to be true in the society

literarydiscussions: yes,... many sadhus came to watch the television,.... people would bath first, as if going to mandir, to pooja, and they would garland the television with flowers,... poor villages pooled resources to get one television

literarydiscussions: this is what i heard...

mahendra_ku: and now alot of folk drama and folk dance and festivals

literarydiscussions: some scholar wrote a paperback entitled "The Many Ramayans"

literarydiscussions: regarding the over 300 verisions, even a Jain version in which Ram is wicked and Ravanna is the noble one

mahendra_ku: you wil be astonished how two epics of india have still alive with the people

mahendra_ku: Yes

mahendra_ku: those 300 vesrions are alive among the people of three hundred subcultures of south east asia.

mahendra_ku: inthe Drama at night

mahendra_ku: suddenly drama stops and people start worshipiingLord Krishna or Rama till they end it. and duringthat period drama is stpped and againstsrted

literarydiscussions: there is a book in print here... by a woman, an american, who went to india, to meet with a married lineage of krishna devotees, (not sannyas), who use drama for worship...

mahendra_ku: sitaram

literarydiscussions: and she witnessed the bee, which came from nowhere, a live insect...

mahendra_ku: there are many living performance

literarydiscussions: which seemed to participate in the service, like a miracle...

literarydiscussions: so, some felt that the bee was a manifestation of krishna

literarydiscussions: it looked like an interesting book...

mahendra_ku: literature in rural india solve so cial problems and in urbanindia gives identity

mahendra_ku: yes

mahendra_ku: relation of a bee with lotus is of a couple of lover

literarydiscussions: i do hope, thought, that at some point, you will have a chance to read some of my writings,.... since i feel that there are somethings which are original, and make contribution to indian heritage and tradition.... and,

mahendra_ku: that is the symbol of expressing love

mahendra_ku: I wd like to read your works

literarydiscussions: i am trying to build up some interest in my writings, and a place on internet for them to live on after my death, otherwise, they will dissappear.... after my death...

literarydiscussions: they do seem to have unusual appeal to people from India....

mahendra_ku: not so

mahendra_ku: people of India have strong fascination to the interpretitions of western scholars

mahendra_ku: this has become interesting

mahendra_ku: As an Indian scholar I have also fasscination to manywestern scholars

literarydiscussions: well, of course they shall disappear,... if no one at all takes an interest in their preservation, since over the past several years, several young people express some interest in preserving my writings,... but then, they become distracted and lose interest....

mahendra_ku: and now what u see me is the contribution of western and indian thought

mahendra_ku: that may not have the inner urge . literature is a dedication

mahendra_ku: to understand life

literarydiscussions: good point,... very nice way to put it....

mahendra_ku: and to make the world beautiful

literarydiscussions: i once read "literature is philosophy in motion"

mahendra_ku: what do u say the non literate people who can even recite whole ramayana and Mahabharata orally with adding local imagination?

literarydiscussions: you know , yann martel, with his novel "Life of Pi", seems to exhibit/ demonstrate exactly what you say....

mahendra_ku: Sitaram I have no access to english novel

literarydiscussions: yann martel says, "there are many stories, and no one can be shown true, so we must choose the best/the most beautiful"

mahendra_ku: I am only prone to indian literature and indian folklore

mahendra_ku: yes you are right

mahendra_ku: about yann martel

mahendra_ku: Sitaram I learn from the peoples version

mahendra_ku: my learning is complete experiential

literarydiscussions: Carl Jung, in his works, as well as Joseph Campbell, demonstrate how the same themes are recurrent in different cultures and languages, in myth

mahendra_ku: what ever I hav learnt is from the peole and my experience

mahendra_ku: yes

mahendra_ku: and once that is understood

mahendra_ku: you can think of what ever good for human being would come out true

mahendra_ku: this is perhaps intuton

literarydiscussions: with your kind permission, i will cut and paste this dialogue of ours, and edit it, and post it at the message board.... to capture our thoughts, for others to learn from

mahendra_ku: yes

literarydiscussions: good, thank you...

mahendra_ku: see now people speaking of gender equity

literarydiscussions: yes, gender equality

mahendra_ku: and your namesignifies that first sita and then Rama

literarydiscussions: and the variant, ramasita

mahendra_ku: have you gone through my paper on ramayana and Mahabharata?

mahendra_ku: No body says ram sita

mahendra_ku: only Sitaram

mahendra_ku: and jai sitaram

literarydiscussions: no, but it is a sirname... a last name i think

literarydiscussions: but no, no one says ramasita, it is always sitaram

mahendra_ku: yes

mahendra_ku: like radhakrishna

literarydiscussions: then end of the movie of Gandhis life has the haunting melody of his favorite bhajan, "Raghupati ragava raja Ram, patite bhavane, Sitaram", but westerners who watch the movie have no idea of the significance of that closing melody

mahendra_ku: yes it will take time for them to understand the whole culture of India

mahendra_ku: U know how itis complex

mahendra_ku: gandhi was uncommon

literarydiscussions: i am fond of the writings and thoughts of Sarvapali Rhadakrishnan

mahendra_ku: excellent

literarydiscussions: it is said that Rabindranath Tagore was the first to call Gandhi "Mahatma"

mahendra_ku: yes

literarydiscussions: of course, "Mahatma" was a term in use for renunciates,... and not first to be used for Gandhi, i believe

mahendra_ku: but people attached it to him

mahendra_ku: he was not infavour of it

literarydiscussions: listen... this is interesting, in bible, in old testament, the prophet ezekiel does something very unusual, which closely resembles the practices of certain sadhus,.... he takes a clay tablet, and inscribes upon it a diagram of Jerusalem...

literarydiscussions: and then lies upon the ground with it, for appx 400 days....

literarydiscussions: and pretends to lay siege to it.....

mahendra_ku: then?

literarydiscussions: there are sadhus who circumambulate a holy site, doing 108 bows, and then moving their body one body length,... and doing prayers and pooja

literarydiscussions: taking several years to circumambulate...

literarydiscussions: the western scholars and theologians TOTALLY IGNORE this interesting behavior of Ezekiel

literarydiscussions: what he does is described as a command from God,.... to imitate (dramatize) a future attack upon Jerusalem...

mahendra_ku: they have different value ssytem

literarydiscussions: so,... it is like an example of drama in religion

mahendra_ku: yes

mahendra_ku: many people inIndia have also did notunderstand Gandhi and blamed him

mahendra_ku: like behavouor of Lzekiel

mahendra_ku: Gandhi was also strong leliever f jesus

literarydiscussions: but, also, it is a sign of the contact which existed between indian and israel...

mahendra_ku: not so

literarydiscussions: you see... bible NEVER refers to God as "lord of hosts (armies)" UNTIL Hanna prays for a child, in Samuel...

literarydiscussions: but.... listen

mahendra_ku: this have been attached or implied later

literarydiscussions: "lord of hosts" is GANAPATI

literarydiscussions: and ganapati is prayed to for a child

literarydiscussions: but... AFTER the book of samuel, and Hanna... then god is constantly refered to as "lord of hosts"...

literarydiscussions: and there is even a prophet's vision where the highest angels are chanting "holy holy holy lord god of hosts"

literarydiscussions: but i believe this is connected to ganesh

mahendra_ku: I have not gone through Old testament so vividly

mahendra_ku: when u have these feelings you please write it immidiately

mahendra_ku: and who knows this will come oout as a piece of best literature

mahendra_ku: and this comparision cutting across time and space is the out come of mental exercise, and this is the want ofliterature

mahendra_ku: nothing else

mahendra_ku: truth cannot be justified with science and logic

mahendra_ku: literarytruth is more stringer than science

mahendra_ku: science is 400 years old and devastatinig the natural world

mahendra_ku: but literature has given the mankind a understanding of thoudand years

literarydiscussions: oh... in the books of the Apokrypha,... the Maccabees,... there are descriptions of battles in which there are elephants and mahouts

mahendra_ku: oh

literarydiscussions: westerners become quite upset when i suggest that "lord of hosts" is ganapati

mahendra_ku: They have their political and cultural consideration.

literarydiscussions: also,... hannah is near the temple in jerusalem... and she is mumbling prayers with her lips silently (mantra?!) and the hight priest Eli sees her, and accuses her of being drunk.....

mahendra_ku: The root of world ancient culture is some thing else and the current trend is some thing else

literarydiscussions: but the fact that Eli the priest does not recognize the practice of mantra, and mistakes it for intoxication, proves that it is not native to their tradition

mahendra_ku: I can send a nice book The sphinx Speakwritten by Jwala Prasad Singhal.he was contemporary of Radha krishnan

mahendra_ku: This book speaks of ancient indian culture in connection to the ancient world culture, but who will agree that Mecca has a Siva Linga

literarydiscussions: yes, i have heard of this

mahendra_ku: you have a good sense of interpretingthe things of culture and please dont ignore the knowledge knowking at your door.

literarydiscussions: and, the circumabulation done at kaaba is COUNTER-PRADIKSHANAM

mahendra_ku: Whe ideas come please note it down

mahendra_ku: yes

literarydiscussions: with the left side of the body towards the kaaba

mahendra_ku: yes ?

literarydiscussions: ,... now... consider that the Hindu symbol of Swastika... is reversed by certain jain and buddhists,.... to go in opposite direction

mahendra_ku: yes

literarydiscussions: my point is... whenever there is a form of "protestant revolution"

literarydiscussions: then something significant is reversed,... so as to break ties with the old

mahendra_ku: there were two ways to realise god

literarydiscussions: pradikshanem becomes counter-pradikshanem

mahendra_ku: yes

literarydiscussions: the mudra of the hands,... left and right,,... upon the lap, during meditation, is reversed between buddhists and jains, between theravadin and mahayana

mahendra_ku: do u have any answer?

literarydiscussions: as to which is on the bottom, left or right...

mahendra_ku: may be to protest the current they adopte ed the counter way

literarydiscussions: and.... during hadjj,... to mecca,... the head is shaven, and a sheet is worn...

literarydiscussions: precisely...

literarydiscussions: but... hadjj attire is similar to pilgrimage to some tirth like Sri Venkanteshera...

literarydiscussions: the shaving of the head...

mahendra_ku: killing of animal is from the top , but from the bottom by the muslims

mahendra_ku: purity

literarydiscussions: i was not familiar with the difference in killing

mahendra_ku: yes

mahendra_ku: Muslims kill from throat side

mahendra_ku: but Hindus kill through neck

mahendra_ku: notBramhin HIndu

literarydiscussions: now,.. when muhammed is in doubt, if he is a prophet or a madman,... (as tradition has it)... he goes to his WIFE Kadijah (a woman!) to ask guidance...

mahendra_ku: but in rural rituals

mahendra_ku: nwhat did he asked Khadija

literarydiscussions: and yet, in Sharia muslim law,... a woman's testimony is only half the value of a male testimony

mahendra_ku: oh

literarydiscussions: he asked kadijah, "am i madman or prophet"

mahendra_ku: then

literarydiscussions: so,.. here is a great embarrasment... to islam...

mahendra_ku: see to my knowledge

literarydiscussions: well,... she does and says various things to convince muhammed that he is indeed a prophet and not insane

mahendra_ku: HInduism and jorathurst are oldest

mahendra_ku: then came islam

mahendra_ku: wha khadija or Muhammad was saying

mahendra_ku: then came Christianity

literarydiscussions: oh,,... and Australian aborigine is the oldest continuously practiced religion, with cave painting of dream time dating back 50,000 years

mahendra_ku: Have you read lor d Raglan

literarydiscussions: Christianity was 700 years before muhammed

mahendra_ku: yes

mahendra_ku: and sanatana Dharma is timeless

literarydiscussions: but... listen... there are muslims who write about the australian aborigines, to attempt to PROVE that they had recieved a messenger from God...

mahendra_ku: before at least 4500 BC in the history

literarydiscussions: since, islam claims that allah sent messengers to each race of peoples

literarydiscussions: so, unless muslims address this issue in australia, then islam will be discredited

mahendra_ku: Even inIndia the aboriginals have the right to say that Veda is their texts

mahendra_ku: since tribal inIndia stil worshiptree, air, water,fire and nature

literarydiscussions: australian aboriginies do practice circumcision.... but it is related to some myth about a snake god, who desires the foreskin

mahendra_ku: oh

mahendra_ku: i have no idea

mahendra_ku: have u written som ebook?

mahendra_ku: on this?

literarydiscussions: but... you see,... primitive tribal circumcisions,.... also cut a small wedge for the female aspect... just like a Shivalingam, which also has an aspect of the Yoni

mahendra_ku: yes that is there

literarydiscussions: no... i have written no book,... only mention these matters in passing

literarydiscussions: well, in tribal circumcisions... there is also a small cut for the yoni

mahendra_ku: These are the mental texts with in you

literarydiscussions: making it a lingam

literarydiscussions: will, i have seen these matters mentioned in various places

literarydiscussions: but, i bring them together as significant

literarydiscussions: in my mind

mahendra_ku: and why dont u captur e it inwriting?

literarydiscussions: we just did... and i shall post at the message board

mahendra_ku: very few people are interested in world culture

literarydiscussions: and others may refine.... if they have interest

mkmishra · Joined: 10 Oct 2005 Posts: 11 Location: Bhubaneswar India

I am writing an article for this forum. The topic is social relevance of the Ramayana and the mahabharata in Indian folk tradition.

mkmishra · Joined: 10 Oct 2005 Posts: 11 Location: Bhubaneswar India

Two important ideas have been encoded by the Classical writers of India. One is the time a poet contribute for his engagement in poetry is away from the reallity which is timeless and spce less. Thattime is added to the mortal age of the poet,
Another idea is that any piece of writing is timeless and spaceless.Some one will come out in future to understand the ideas of the poet,may be it take centuries.
mahendra

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