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Sitaram · Site Admin Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 1079

http://sulekha.com/chpost.asp?for...ilosophy&show=0&cid=94755

In Yahoo Chat (Professors):

Cuddly: Sitaram, explain why the "our Father..." prayer dictated by Jesus
contains no trace of the Christian Gospel message and instead depicts a totally
orthodox-Jewish principle of forgiveness by deed?

Sitaram: What do you consider to be the message of the Gospel, so I may be
certain about exactly what, in your estimation, there is no trace of?

Cuddly: The Gospel is about salvation-by-grace/faith as opposed to
salvation-by-deed/works.

Sitaram: Your very question is based on your misconception of what constitutes
the essential Christian message. You tried to assert that the "Lords Prayer"
contains no trace of the Christian message of "salvation by grace (i.e. Luther's
salvation by faith)", but only the Jewish message of salvation by works... but
it is not clear that the essential Christian message is salvation by grace or
faith alone (without works). That notion was an innovation of Martin Luther in
the 16th century, and the start of the Protestant reformation. I have a
quotation from Maximos the Confessor, circa 6th century, which supports my
argument.

That is why I asked you to define me what you consider to be the essential
Christian message, so that I might understand what precisely you believe to be
absent from the "Lord's Prayer."

Since you strike me as the kind of person who only asks questions that you feel
you already have an answer to, please tell us precisely why the "Lord's Prayer"
contains only a Jewish message of salvation-by-works, and not one trace of the
Christian message of "salvation-by-grace(faith)"

Cuddly: Sitaram, have you actually read the New Testament or just been
indoctrinated about it? It says that all men have sinned and are unworthy of the
grace of God. Salvation is only through the sacrifice of the on...Catholics
rather than Protestants coined the term "grace" for this.

Sitaram: I read it in Greek.

Sitaram: But is your question a serious one, or rhetorical, or do you simply
desire to be contentious?

Cuddly: Sitaram, what Paul wrote to James has no bearing on the question.

Sitaram: Protestants are famous for picking and choosing only those verses
which lends support to their agenda.

Cuddly: Sitaram, I am ready to dismiss you as a theological lightweight.

Sitaram: Martin Luther wanted to exclude the Epistle of James from the canons
because of the stress it placed on works.

Polaris: Humanism saw man as a rational and sentient being with the ability to
decide and think for himself. This was a rejection of the Catholic Church's
vision of souls as the only absolute reality, which was then seen as mystical
and imaginary. It saw man as inherently good by nature which is in contrast to
the Christian view of man as the original sinner who must be redeemed. It
provoked fresh insight into the nature of reality, questioning beyond God and
spirituality, and provided for knowledge about history beyond Christian history.

Cuddly: Sure Sitaram, answer a question you can't handle with some irrelevant
info that you happen to think you know. Great strategy, you might even fool some
people in here with it. Good luck.

Sitaram: So, I see you simply desire to be contentious, or you would have asked
what the quote is from Maximus the Confessor (if only out of simple curiosity):

St. Maximos the Confessor (who lived 580-662 c.e.): First Century on Love, 39.
"Do not say that you are the temple of the Lord, writes Jeremiah (cf. Jer. 7:4);
nor should you say that faith alone can save you, for this is impossible unless
you also acquire love through your works. As for faith by itself, "the devils
also believe, and tremble" (James 2:19), yet the belief which the devils hold is
not sufficient for their salvation.

Cuddly: Sitaram, are you still here? What a waste!

Sitaram: "Give us this day our DAILY bread", in the Greek is "arton eemon ton
EPI-OUSION, dos eemeen seemeron", so what is translated as DAILY is literally
"epi ousian" (above being) or super-substantial, super-essential.

Here is a provocative issue. The verse of the Eucharist which says "this is my
blood, is shed for MANY", and the variation one encounters, which says "this is
my blood which has been shed FOR ALL," which brings up the issue of Calvinist
"limited atonement" (limited to those predestined), versus the universality of
invitation.

The best question I ever saw regarding Buddhism, is: "if everything is
impermanence, then is Nirvana also impermanent?"

One of the best questions I ever saw in an IRC philosophy chat was "where is
compassion in Camus", which evolved to the question, "where is compassion in all
of the history of philosophy", and it pointed to the cave analogy in Plato's
Republic, where the one enlightened person RETURNS to the cave to free the
others from their chains (which is sort of like the vow of the Bodhisattva.)

Santayana said that one of humanity's greatest abilities is the ability to feel
utter contempt for oneself (which is an important first step towards
improvement)

http://www.users.drew.edu/~jlenz/brtexts.html

http://www.ditext.com/russell/rus1.html

Here it is, from Bert Russel: as soon as definite knowledge concerning any
subject becomes possible, this subject ceases to be called philosophy, and
becomes a separate science. The whole study of the heavens, which now belongs to
astronomy, was once included in philosophy.

http://www.ditext.com/russell/rus15.html

Someone asks: "Can there be such a thing as an excess of virtue?"

Sitaram: Aristotle said that the mean is best, but in some matters, excess is
better than deficiency, but in other matters, deficiency is better then excess
But in literature, which someone once described as "philosophy in motion", then
sometimes an excess of virtue becomes a tragic flaw.

=============================================

Luke 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first,
and counteth the cost, whether he have [sufficient] to finish [it]? Lest haply,
after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish [it], all that
behold [it] begin to mock him, Saying, This man began to build, and was not able
to finish.

Matthew 5:14-16 (Luke 8:16-18, Mark 4:21)

"You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hid. Nor do men
light a lamp and put it under a bushel, but on a stand, and it gives light to
all in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your
good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

Kala: Call me Kala please. Kala means art in Sanskrit

Sitaram: Interesting. In ancient Greek, kala means good or beautiful

Sitaram: Socrates frequently said "Xalapa ta KALA," which means
good/noble/beautiful things are difficult; require work, effort,

Kala: Kaala is time in Sanskrit

Sitaram: Purakh akal is Sikh term for God meaning "beyond time."

Sitaram: Yesterday, I succeeded in locating the whereabouts of someone I went
through school with from age 14. I have wanted to locate her because she was
most unusual, she ALWAYS carried a Bible with her everywhere, and was constantly
reading it.

Sitaram: Her yearbook entry said that she wanted to become a missionary to
Native Americans.

Sitaram: I located her parents on Internet, and spoke with a younger sister,
who said that she married a minister and lives in Boston, and she spent some
time on a reservation. Such focus of purpose for someone to have from such an
early age!

Kala: I admire such people.

Sitaram: Yes. I was quite gratified to learn that she kept her focus through
life.

Kala: People who can stick to what they believe in are admirable. I wish I had
such resoluteness. Most of us r lost most of the time.

Sitaram: In eighth grade, the teacher asked her to give an argument why she
hated doing homework, (knowing full well that she likes homework). The student
explained that she LIKES homework. The teacher explained that the purpose of
debate was to learn to argue either side of an argument effectively. So then,
she dutifully proceeded to say how homework is hard and boring and takes up too
much time. In highschool I was interested in writing poetry. I asked her once
which verses in the Bible she thought were most poetic. She read a few to me
from Ecclesiastes and Pslams I believe, but they did not appeal to me at that
time.

Kala: Why do feel the urge to seek such people out now?

Sitaram: You see, a physicist must have an accelerator to study the behavior of
particles under high energy. But, the object of my study is the human soul in
the accelerator of religion. Religion is an alchemist's laboratory which seeks
to transform base metals into precious metals. Only in historical hindsight may
we examine the course of one person's life and gain some insight or
understanding.

Sitaram: I do wish I could ask her many different questions about her life. But
I imagine she would feel uncomfortable and not understand my motives.

Sitaram: It just now occurs to me, regarding the parable of the sower of the
seeds. All seeds are, by definition, alike, having the same potential to
germinate and sprout and grow into the same sort of plant. And it is the sower's
intention , by the act of sowing, that each seed be successful and become in
actuality what it is in potential.

BUT, as the sower casts the seeds, there is randomness and accident at work,
beyond the sowers control. So, some seeds fall upon the rocks, some upon the
sand,some in good soil, and some are eaten by the birds of the air. This
suggests that NURTURE (environment, surroundings, fellowship, sangha) are the
determining factor, over NATURE, since each seed shares an identical nature and
potentiality. If I could, I would ask her so many questions.

I would ask her if she ever experienced doubts, and if so, at what times in her
life, and what were the nature of her doubts. I would ask her what her
experience has been with the temptations which we all experience, regarding
sexuality, food, alcohol, tobacco, anger, envy, greed, violence, idleness,
depression. I would ask her if she ever changed religious denominations, what
she considers to be the essential dogmatic and doctrinal issues at stake.

Sitaram: When we see admirable people from a distance (or famous people), we
form a notion about them, based on what we see, hear, read, just as when we
watch actors who perform on a stage (but we never get to go back stage and watch
them take off their make-up.)

But, if we were to raise that person as a child. See how they keep their room
and dress and groom, see how they tend their affairs, see all the details of
their moment to moment life.

Each of us experiences that moment to moment detail only most fully in our own
life.But when we see someone who is admirable, whom we wish to imitate,
emulate.well, we see them on a stage, but we cannot easily see backstage. This
is where the value and importance of biography comes into play. If such a person
as my school acquaintance could open her heart and mind and memory, and share
with the world her intimate experiences, her interior life, why this would be
invaluable, especially, because she is not a famous person, but leads
an ordinary life of a private citizen.

Kala: I believe that each and every person has a story to tell .

Sitaram: Once someone enters the public eye, whether it be Billy
Graham, or the Dalai Lama, or William F. Buckley, Jr., then they become
a PERSONA, and they begin to represent and symbolize something for the
public, and those very things which they represent become a defining
prison for them. They must never say or do anything which might
contradict what they have come to stand for or represent.

I would like to ask her what she feels are her greatest sins, her greatest

regrets. What would she have liked to do over in her life? Perhaps she felt
very lonely in school, because she stood out as an unapproachable icon
of respectability and purity. Perhaps she felt tormented by the society
which surrounded her, with values so different from her own. Did she ever
succumb to pride over her achievements? Did she view the others around
her, those much weaker and less fortunate than she, with compassion.
Did she love them? Did she love her enemy?

Each persons life is worthy of a novel or movie.

Kala: When you said "all those things they represent then becomes a
defining prison for them" did you mean that one cant then break free from
there? Are they denied the right to change then?

Sitaram: Good question. Certainly, chains can be broken, but they are still
chains, restraints, and there are golden chains, such as our popularity or
power which comes from what we symbolize.... so there is something to
be lost and something to be gained from breaking such chains.

Sitaram: A president takes a walk on the beach with Billy Graham, and
claims to be transformed. But what if Billy Graham were to take a walk on
a beach with Mick Jagger and feel transformed, what could he do, what
should he do, given his reputation as Billy Graham, and all the people who
admire him and depend upon him.

Sitaram: Aha, I am remembering a verse which pertains to the mystery
of the sower of the seeds, and the seeds falling in various places, some
auspicious, and others inauspicious. It has to do with the cities of Sidon
and Tyre:

http://www.tektonics.org/tyresidon.html

Matthew 11:21-2 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for
if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and
Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I
say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of
judgment, than for you.

Some have asked, "If this is true, and Tyre and Sidon would have
repented, why didn't Jesus go there and do some miracles? Those souls
could have been saved." If a seed had fallen in good soil, it might have
sprouted. So, had I been born into the family of my school acquaintance,
then would I have also carried a Bible everywhere, and read it countless
times before reaching the age of 17?

Sitaram: http://www.rationalchristianity.net/miracles_withheld.html

Sitaram: Why would God withhold miracles?

Sitaram: And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you
will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had
been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell
you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than
for you."

Sitaram: Ezekiel 33:11 'As surely as I live,' declares the Sovereign LORD,
'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn
from their ways and live.'"

1 Timothy 2:4 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all
men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

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