literarydiscussions.myfreeforum.org Literature, Poetry, Essays, Dialogues, Philosophy, Theology    FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Join! (free) >   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Democracy from every cell and pore          literarydiscussions.myfreeforum.org Forum Index -> Dialogues View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Sitaram Site Admin Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 1079 Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:25 am    Post subject: Democracy from every cell and pore Beautiful_Dreamer: nothing new .apart from my medical school exam Beautiful_Dreamer: how is your wife? Sitaram: well.... it is a very complex situation..... kidney seems ok... but is asleep.... not very much urine yet... so she is on dialysis Beautiful_Dreamer: oh I am sorry Sitaram: and.... so many new medications to take.... especially ones to suppress rejection Beautiful_Dreamer: oh I see Sitaram: so... it is all a big gamble.... risking that the kidney will work for a few years... Sitaram: and the medications and procedures do injure the health in other ways with side effects Sitaram: so it is like gambling Sitaram: gambling that you may win against the odds and have 5 or 10 years of more normal life Sitaram: if the kidney fails... then she will have gambled and lost Beautiful_Dreamer: I understand Sitaram: but.... if she had never tried and made the attempt, but chosen the safe conservative route to stay on dialysis... then she might always be haunted with the thought, "WHAT IF I HAD TRIED" Sitaram: so, sometimes, in life, it is better to gamble and lose, knowing that you tried everything.... Beautiful_Dreamer: you mean she needs a transplant? Sitaram: rather than to be conservative out of fear.... Sitaram: NOOOOO.... she HAS the transplant NOW... but it may not work Sitaram: she already lost a live donor kidney from her sister, a perfect match... which clotted and died withing 12 hours after surgery Beautiful_Dreamer: oh Sitaram: now,.... a year later, she is given a cadaver kidney from a donor who died of lung infection... Beautiful_Dreamer: yes Beautiful_Dreamer: do you remember me? Sitaram: You are in Iran Sitaram: interested in Asar Nafisi Beautiful_Dreamer: oh I havent read her Sitaram: but.... we spoke of making a forum, and me putting summaries Sitaram: since book is forbidden in your country Beautiful_Dreamer: true Beautiful_Dreamer: ok ok Sitaram: which i intend to do... Beautiful_Dreamer: I know you remember! Sitaram: i created the forum already... Beautiful_Dreamer: oh you did Sitaram: but it is empty still Beautiful_Dreamer: oh ok Sitaram: until i have time to start working on reading, summarizing, paraphrazing Beautiful_Dreamer: yes yes understandable Sitaram: which is not illegal regarding the copyright Sitaram: knowing someone such as you is very valuable , since you live in a different world, culture.... we may learn much from each other Beautiful_Dreamer: yes I believe so ..but am not a valuable source of knowledge Beautiful_Dreamer: and you cant take me as an example of irans culture Beautiful_Dreamer: or what Sitaram: you may feel free to ask me any question on any matter.... either regarding religion, or america... or being male... or on sexuality.... and you may ask without fear.... since i regard this as an opportunity for you to learn Sitaram: well... i am not typical of an american Beautiful_Dreamer: whyt not? Sitaram: you are curious and open minded.... so by definition, as a woman, you are a rebel, a misfit....since you are willing to question your culture and religion and government... Sitaram: i am not typical for following reasons.... Sitaram: i grew up influenced heavily by artistic intellectuals Beautiful_Dreamer: wow Beautiful_Dreamer: how? Sitaram: in a period of idealism Sitaram: the 50s and 60s Sitaram: so.... in my 20s i seek (sought) a life of orthodox christian monastic mysticism... Sitaram: i taught myself to get by in russian and greek languages Beautiful_Dreamer: you learn those languages? Sitaram: i suppose i have always been a REACTIONARY (who yearns to return to a former time)... Sitaram: greatly admiring socrates and plato Beautiful_Dreamer: me too Sitaram: and the college i went to was very unusual... Beautiful_Dreamer: how? Sitaram: reading the 100 great books of the western world... st. johns in annapolis Sitaram: maryland Sitaram: with sister campus in sante fe new mexico Sitaram: all courses required of all students for 4 years.... Beautiful_Dreamer: wow Sitaram: granting bachelor of liberal arts degree Beautiful_Dreamer: sounds wonderful Sitaram: it is a luxury education Beautiful_Dreamer: what is liberal art? Sitaram: well... let me explain Sitaram: in the days of Thomas Jefferson... when the government and constitution were just being formed... Sitaram: the idea of power and rule coming from the people, a republican democratic representative government.... Sitaram: Jefferson felt that ALL PEOPLE must be educated, FOR FREE, which was an odd notion at that time Sitaram: since at that time only the very wealthy would PAY for education... Sitaram: SO, he founded many small liberal arts colleges Sitaram: the idea being that the entire population must be educated, if they were to participated in the government process Sitaram: so, in a way , Jefferson was the start of such things... Sitaram: now... at st. johns..... they speak in the ancient terms of studying the TRIVIUM and the QUADRIVIUM... Sitaram: trivium (three) is language skills, grammar rhetoric.... Sitaram: i forget the three exactly Beautiful_Dreamer: wow Beautiful_Dreamer: interesting Sitaram: the quadrivium is the math science side of things Sitaram: and the motto of St Johns is an ancient quotation in latin Sitaram: which means "I make free men out of slaves (or children) by means of books and a balance)... Sitaram: if you google.com on "free men" books balance Beautiful_Dreamer: oh wonderful Beautiful_Dreamer: free men Sitaram: well... free adults Beautiful_Dreamer: so you studied in an art college Sitaram: you see.... FREEDOM,... is something dangerous in a theocracy.... Sitaram: do not confuse ART with painting... Beautiful_Dreamer: true Beautiful_Dreamer: yes I know Sitaram: the ARTS are rhetoric, math, science... Beautiful_Dreamer: yes Sitaram: LIBERAL means , FREELY covering MANY subjects... and not specializing in one thing, such as accounting Sitaram: google.com on liberal arts great books Sitaram: or "liberal arts" "great books" Sitaram: if you add Chicago to that search... you will come up perhaps with UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO... which started/founded st. johns program as an experiment in education in the 1940s Beautiful_Dreamer: oh really interesting Sitaram: no offense, but such an education would be poison to islamic cultures.... since questioning quran/prophet/islam is forbidden.... Sitaram: so... such liberal studies, produces very secular people sometimes (as opposed to very religious clerics) Beautiful_Dreamer: thats wonderful Sitaram: i hope i will not offend you by speaking openly like this about such matters Beautiful_Dreamer: oh no I love that Beautiful_Dreamer: you think I am happy here? Sitaram: Martin Luther of the protestant christian reformation was very much like this, saying that one must PLUCK OUT THE EYES OF REASON... and never question... Beautiful_Dreamer: with those limited minded clerics Sitaram: i think that brilliant females are miserable in theocracies Beautiful_Dreamer: you are right Sitaram: yes, of course... Sitaram: for me, a soul/mind/spirit is without sex/gender... and is imprisoned in either a male or female body Sitaram: so... i see you as a conscious intelligence..... but with the particulars of a certain culture/gender/historical period Sitaram: i would never think it odd for a woman to be a great leader Beautiful_Dreamer: yes its not odd Beautiful_Dreamer: Joan of Ark Sitaram: now... in spain in 12th century (or perhaps 11th).... the greatest of all rabbinical jewish theologians, Moses Maimonides, wrote in Arabic... "The Guide for the Perplexed".... Sitaram: and in that book he often speaks of the Muslim MUTAKALLIMUM, who were a sect of islam Sitaram: that believed in questioning.... blending philosophy with religion Beautiful_Dreamer: Sitaram: but there have been hundreds of islamic sects, over the centuries (or different schools of thought)... Sitaram: and their opponents were the TRADITIONALISTS, who felt that questioning is evil Sitaram: but... Martin Luther the father of Protestant Christianity, who rebelled against the Roman Catholic papacy, was a traditionalist who thought questioning and philosophy to be evil, of the shaitan devil Sitaram: AND John Calvin, another founding father of protestant christianity... was very similar to islam, in his notions regarding God's (Allah's) sovereignty (mighty absolute authority)... Sitaram: so... for Calvin... each person is fore-ordained to salvation or damnation, by gods will, from before the creation of the world... Sitaram: islam teaches something similar... Sitaram: BECAUSE, IF it were the case that human free will choice COOPERATED with God in the process of salvation... Sitaram: then the SOVEREIGNTY (kingship) of god would be diminished,... less absolute Sitaram: hence... islam means SUBMISSION SURRENDER... GIVING UP... Sitaram: unquestioning obedience.... Sitaram: no place for philosophy, science... Sitaram: indeed... the muslim must look to the quran for SCIENTIFIC MIRACLES.... Sitaram: such as the mathematical rules that each verse in the quran supposedly obeys Sitaram: except for the "satanic verses" about the daughters of Allah, which were discovered as false by the mathematical formula, and removed Beautiful_Dreamer: well if they let people to doubt and Beautiful_Dreamer: ask questions Beautiful_Dreamer: how could they lead the society in a way they desire Beautiful_Dreamer: its horrible to live in a society like this Sitaram: but.... take a look at the history of the protestant christian movement since its start in the 16th century Sitaram: the result is the splintering into literally 1500 sectarian groups, each with beliefs and practices widely different from the other.... Sitaram: the ONLY christian church to have the greatest majority (roman catholic) of 1 billion,... out of a total of 1.6 billion christians... Sitaram: the roman church ALSO has the GREATEST unity of belief and practice amoung those 1 billion members.... Sitaram: BUT it achieves that unity because of its central authority of the PAPACY (Pope).... Sitaram: and being very strict, authoritarian... Beautiful_Dreamer: yes Sitaram: the watchword of the protestants was FREEDOM of individual Sitaram: and protestant movement in a way gave birth to DEMOCRACY... Sitaram: because, the protestants fled from europe and england, seeking religious freedom... Beautiful_Dreamer: wow you know so much about these evolutions Sitaram: so, each group in early america... sought the freedom to run its community as it chose Sitaram: that is why the FOUNDING FATHERS who drafted the CONSTITUTION sought to keep CHURCH and STATE separated.... in order to guarantee such freedom to the minority... Beautiful_Dreamer: yes Sitaram: democracy means NOT SIMPLY majority rule.... but ALSO, sheltering the rights of minoritys... Sitaram: minorities Sitaram: that is why in addition the popular vote... there is also the ELECTORAL COLLEGE, so that a small state like rhode island, may still have some power against a huge state like california Sitaram: to achieve some BALANCE OF POWER... Sitaram: but you can see how the protestant quest for individual freedom could lead to such a democratic form of government... Sitaram: now JOHN LOCKE and Thomas HOBBES, were two very different political philosophers... Sitaram: the theories of JOHN LOCKE evolved into all the democratic constitutional governments of our modern world... Sitaram: whereas HOBBES crafted his theories to favor a KING,... Sitaram: HOBBES felt that all humans are basically evil... and must SURRENDER, their freedom to a king , in exchange for security... Beautiful_Dreamer: oh god let me understand the first part Sitaram: LOCKE felt that humans are an equal mixture of GOOD AND EVIL... and have within themselves the power to become good, or very wicked Beautiful_Dreamer: you give too much information Beautiful_Dreamer: and I am so dumb~! Sitaram: listen .... this is important.... Sitaram: usa tries to make democracy in other cultures... Beautiful_Dreamer: really? Sitaram: but... dont you see.... how i am as a person... that is... if i sweat... democracy is in my sweat Sitaram: if i burp, democracy is in my mouth... Sitaram: if i sneeze, democracy is in my spit... Sitaram: i literally pee and poop democracy from every pour and orifice Beautiful_Dreamer: hahaha Beautiful_Dreamer: thats wonderful Sitaram: the lesson is... you cannot walz (dance) into iraq or africa.... or india... and suddenly plop a democratic constitution (or viet nam).... Beautiful_Dreamer: yes perhaps not Sitaram: and expect that those people will also pee and poop and fart and spit democracy from every cell in their body... Sitaram: WHY... because i am a product of hundreds of years of culture, ancestry, history, conditioning... Beautiful_Dreamer: but I dont think usa tries really to spread democracy Sitaram: just as indians, africans, saudis are Sitaram: oh... no... you are wrong.... Sitaram: look at iraq Sitaram: the elections... Sitaram: look at south america Sitaram: for a democracy.... anything that is NOT A DEMOCRACY is a threat.... Sitaram: i do not criticize this.... it is very natural Sitaram: by the SAME TOKEN... for Muhammad, for Islam.... it is the WORLD WIDE UMMAH which is the ultimate goal... Sitaram: ummah is the world community government of islam Sitaram: that is why in a short time after the prophets death,... muslim armies advanced to jerusalem.... and europe responded with the crusades Beautiful_Dreamer: well I dont call it a proper act Sitaram: i visited a mosque YEARS before the 9/11 world trade center attack.... actually TWO mosques... and the first thing i saw inside the entrance was a WORLD MAP, with stick pins in it to mark areas already conquered by islam Sitaram: it is not a matter of proper and improper.... if the leopard bites the gazelle... it is not a matter of proper and improper, or etiquette... it is a matter of survival Sitaram: if the viper bites the man, it is not a matter of propriety or manners... it is survival Sitaram: and if the man kills the viper and the leopard... again, survival, not ethics Beautiful_Dreamer: I dont know..I just cant admit you begin wars to spread religon ..or democracy or what Sitaram: in Buddhist tradition, the Buddha had many rebirths, many lives, and in one... he sees a lioness with her cubs starving... so he casts his body off the cliff, so that his flesh might give them food and relieve their suffering Beautiful_Dreamer: oh Sitaram: the very history of islam is a history of arab colonial aggression in the name of religion Sitaram: look at similarity of buddha dying to feed the lions... and christ on cross, giving his flesh and blood as a mystical eucharist communion, for believers to eat. Such acts of self sacrifice are contra-natural, running against the survival instinct, or rather, it is an instinct for survival of ALL, of others, rather than just the self or species. Beautiful_Dreamer: yes Sitaram: now... stop and think.... over and over... the Quran says that ALLAH HAS NO PARTNERS (shirk).... BUT... is it not really the case that Muhammed made himself the partner of Allah, since you CANNOT be muslim UNLESS you confess BOTH Allah as the ONE god, and Muhammad as the SEAL (final) of the prophets...? Beautiful_Dreamer: sorry sorry..I am enjoying this conversation much Beautiful_Dreamer: but I have toi study Beautiful_Dreamer: tomorrrow have an exam Beautiful_Dreamer: cant concentrate on what you say Sitaram: that is ok... we have much time... study hard... become a free woman,... defeat all those mullahs and imams Beautiful_Dreamer: sure Beautiful_Dreamer: thank you for sharing time with me Sitaram: yes... i enjoy Beautiful_Dreamer: you be well Back to top Sitaram Site Admin Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 1079 Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:04 am    Post subject: beautiful_dreamer: I cant talk much 10 minutes perhaps Sitaram: nice to see you... i was thinking of our wonderful dialogue yesterday beautiful_dreamer: wow beautiful_dreamer: it was more wonderful for me Sitaram: the drama of woman in society Sitaram: that phrase / title just came to me Sitaram: seriously... beautiful_dreamer: yes beautiful_dreamer: thats right Sitaram: the situation virginia woolf paints in A ROOM OF ONES OWN Sitaram: which is available on the internet... beautiful_dreamer: oh yes beautiful_dreamer: I want to read that Sitaram: her essay regarding the plight of women in her times beautiful_dreamer: a psychiatric prof of ours recommended that book Sitaram: that one cannot have the freedom to create, or the respect due to an INDIVIDUAL, in there personhood, but rather.... treated as an object, a thing, a female beautiful_dreamer: yes Sitaram: does your professor consider islamic culture a form of illness... (seriously, i DO) Sitaram: i think that the prophet was a very sick man,... and that sickness flowed into the quran,.... and has afflicted entire generations and nations for centuries beautiful_dreamer: he was trying to persuade us that it doesnt matter much to be a virgin etc Sitaram: i am not trying to be cruel or spitful... beautiful_dreamer: oh you know religons have their limitations beautiful_dreamer: you dont have any image of that wild arab world of 1400 years ago Sitaram: look at the PARSIS (Zoroastrians) who fled from Persia (Iran) 1000 years ago, and found refuge in India,... and are there to this day Sitaram: Parsi writings record how the invading muslims came to their fire temples, and harassed them during worship beautiful_dreamer: yes beautiful_dreamer: its stupid Sitaram: even the SUFIS, a mystical sect of Islam.... were persecuted by the orthodox muslims.... Hallaj was the first Sufi martyr Sitaram: executed by fellow muslims beautiful_dreamer: religons are there to unite human beinfs not to seperate them this way beautiful_dreamer: yes Sitaram: Jonathan Swift (Gullivers Travels) wrote, "There is just enough religion in the world to make everyone hate one another, but not enough religion in the world to make everyone love one another" beautiful_dreamer: a friend of mine wants to talk with me beautiful_dreamer: you must meet him one day Sitaram: friend Sitaram: ok beautiful_dreamer: he is a terribly interesting person beautiful_dreamer: and he is over 70 Sitaram: be cautious beautiful_dreamer: Sitaram: aha... old is safe.. beautiful_dreamer: he is my friend for 3 years beautiful_dreamer: best friend Sitaram: i mean, do not let someone betray you to authorities beautiful_dreamer: dont worry Sitaram: can you read 1984 by George Orwell Sitaram: or is that banned beautiful_dreamer: no only animal farms Sitaram: or are Iranians too dumb to realize they should ban it... beautiful_dreamer: haha they are Sitaram: aha... they are not too dumb Sitaram: if you say it is banned beautiful_dreamer: its not banned Sitaram: so, we are back to "too dumb" Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         literarydiscussions.myfreeforum.org Forum Index -> Dialogues All times are GMT - 5 Hours Page 1 of 1   Jump to: Select a forum Showcase----------------You must CONTACT SITARAM directly to JOIN this message boardVoices of Africa UnitedHOW TO JOIN THIS FORUM. 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