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Sitaram · Site Admin Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 1079

Sitaram says:
you saw me on line and were thinking/wondering
Sandy says:
how you were , yes
Sitaram says:
when i saw that you typed "swame" i was thinking of a hindu "swami" who reads minds, thats why I was confused for a moment.
Sitaram says:
ha ha
Sandy says:
now that sounds ingteresting
Sandy says:
I wish i could
Sandy says:
haha
Sitaram says:
well, but perhaps we would be less happy if we knew the secret thoughts of everyone, or if we saw the future
Sandy says:
funny i ws tghinking hat the other day
Sandy says:
if we knew what was to happen
Sandy says:
would we have interest or driveany
Sitaram says:
I am suddenly reminded of a novel that Sartres lifelong girlfriend wrote, "All Men are Mortal",
Sitaram says:
about a man who was immortal. I have not read it.

Someone could write a novel about when happens when you suddenly can read minds and know the future

Sandy says:
would we care?

Sitaram says:
Simone de Beauvoir
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos...8456/002-4295717-5094402?v=glance

that has some reviews

this book clearly shows, without death, life has no meaning

Fosca goes into battle, but knows deep down he risks nothing and he is not the hero his fellow soldiers think he is.

she says his devotion to her means nothing : she is devoting her life to him while he will have hundreds of other wives after her

Without sacrificing our life or part of it, we give nothing

through this immortal life that de Beauvoir explores what it means to be human, what it means to exist,

he watches the failure of humankind again and again

What is the point in trying to change things when their essence remains the same throughout time

a thoughtful, chilling look at humankind and our desire for perfection.

Sandy says:
but maybe that is the point perhaps if we are forewarned

Sandy says:
you were saying what was the point if we knew
perhaps that is the point if we were forewarned
perhaps we could change things
more than one future

Sitaram says:
i shall tell you something fascinating... which very few people know or understand , in the new testament gospels
yet it is right under our noses...
regarding what you just said, about knowing the future and changing it
I may possibly be the first to have ever made this theological observation / analysis
it is when Jesus says to Peter "before the rooster crows twice, you shall deny me THREE TIMES"

Sandy says:
you are giving me goosebumps. Do tell
Sitaram says:
and of course Peter denies up and down that he would do such a thing

BUT... here is the key point...
WHEN the momment comes and peter does deny three times....
his memory is obviously clouded over, so that the words of Jesus would not affect his actions...

and it clearly states that, only AFTER the denial, do the words of Jesus come to his mind...

ok... so here is the analysis from an ancient Greek Orthodox theological perspective.....
The greeks call Jesus "The-anthropos" from theos (god) plus anthropos (human being)
pronounced THAY-anthropos
now the ancient greek theologians state that god is not simply eternal, for god create all eternal things, ... rather god is PRE-ETERNAL....
dwelling outside of time and eternity
so from that pre eternal vantage point (and this is a great mystery) ALL OF OUR FUTURE CHOICES are seen, foreknown... YET in no way
in no way does that foreknowledge ROB us of our freedom of choice at the moment of time that we choose, when it arrives
hence.... when Jesus tells Peter "you shall deny me three times BEFORE THE ROOSTER has even crowed two time"

This is the theanthropos speaking from the pre-eternal vantage point,
seeing all future free will choices as present, as now
and it is quite significant that the detail is added regarding the rooster...
jesus does not simply say "you shall deny me at some future point"
or even "you shall deny me three times at some future point" ...
which would be vague predictions...

Sandy says:
could it be then that god intgervened
made it as he predicted

Sitaram:
nor even does he say, "you shall deny me WHEN the rooster crows..."

Sitaram says:
the REASON why Peter's memory is clouded over at the moment of his free will choice.... is that the theanthropos SEES a future free will choice and chooses to tell about it...

BUT, if the TELLING were to alter the humans choice,... then that person would be ROBBED of their free will....

so, there is a purpose behind the entire episode.... a purpose in revealing the future and then clouding it....

in order to make a subtle point...

BUT, TIME AND AGAIN in old and new testament, it is demonstrated that human free will choice is INVIOLABLE

and essential...

so, there was a reason to foretell the denial,... but also a reason to protect peter through forgetfulness...

so that he would exercise his free will choice...

Jesus does not make a predicition of some future thing that he is certain shall happen...

Jesus SEES the future moment as a present moment from the pre eternal vantage point

in fact, these judaeo-christian analyses of free will are one argument of refutation against Islam and the Quran

because.... throughout the bible, whenever an angel appears to a human... the humans are afraid, and the angel calms them down, saying "fear not... be of good cheer"

but, when Gabriel appears to Muhammed.... it is a terrifying episode where Gabriel grabbs and squeezes Muhammad almost to death

and commands "PROCLAIM"

which is a violation of free will

and then, muhammed, like a puppet, blurts out "Bismillah al rahman al raheen"

"In the name of Allah, the beneficent, the merciful"

Sitaram · Site Admin Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 1079

Sitaram says:
so... can you see , can you understand, regarding peter, time , eternity, free will

but, you see, no one has thought of it precisely in that way for 2000 years

Sandy says:
we have free will to make our choices but the future, i s already planned
...so it seems whatever we do, we think we have free choice
...

Sitaram says:
NO, that is NOT how it is. ok... think about this mystery.... if you have a container filled with some gas..... then, if you examine the behavior of each molecule,.... it seems totally free, random, irrational, unpredictable.....

BUT, if you study the behavior of the entire container of gas,.... it follows precise laws of temperature, pressure, flow, etc...
Sitaram says:
so... think of the gas molecule as one person, individual...

but think of the container of gas as the entire human race...

so,... on a microcosmic level, everything is very free, random, unpredictable...

on a macrocosmic level, everything is constrained by very precise mathematical laws, and quite predictable

Sandy says:
we are what we are?

Sitaram says:
we see the same if we compare the smooth orderly predictable motions of galaxies in Relativity, with the surrealistic vagueness of quantum particles.... on a microcosm

Sitaram · Site Admin Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 1079

Sandy says:
a little above but will muse over it. Are you saying that although we have choices free will because of out nature what er are we will act in a certain way so therefore our choices are maede

Sitaram says: NO!
our mind is very linear, addicted to logic, a certain specific kind of logic, aristotelian, syllogistic, A implied B, B implies C, etc etc

so... we try to reduce everything to that logic

and we try to resolve ambiguities, paradoxes....

but,.... there are phenomena which do not fit into that logical scheme

such as the dual nature of light, behaving BOTH as a wave AND as a particle

our minds want to resolve what we see as a contradiction, (and contradictions make us uncomfortable)

the idea is that we BOTH TRULY HAVE FREEDOM AT THE MOMENT of choice AND ALSO the outcome of all choices can be foreknown, without that foreknowledge predetermining them

think of it in this fashion...

we are in what we call the future,....looking back into what we call the past, history.... and we see that brutus choose to assassinate caesar...

we do not feel that our knowledge in any way forced Brutus to choose one particular course of action...

if a little ant is wandering on a pavement.... and I am standing as a giant, to see the overall pattern of that motion...

from a perspective which the ant cannot share....

i can see that the ant is travelling, on the hot pavement,... in a path which will ultimately bring the ant to the cool green grass....

but my FOREKNOWLDGE from my vantage, does not rob the ant of the freedom of each step

I am like God to the ant, and the ant is unaware of my presence or nature.

any example that I might give would be only an approximation to the actual thing... and not the thing in itself...

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