literarydiscussions.myfreeforum.org

Sitaram · Site Admin Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 1079

StudentInIndia: Lately, I've been having trouble with my breath. I think
it's because something went wrong when I was meditating on it. So, what
exactly do I do? It always feels like I'm having a hard time breathing... I
feel very suffocated and I'm always aware of it in my waking state. I don't
really know what to do... it's quite difficult to handle the situation. Any
suggestions?

Sitaram: I seriously suggest getting a good physical exam, with blood
tests, first, to rule out some physical illness. Once you know how your
physical health is, then you can move on to address it as a spiritual rather
than a medical problem

StudentInIndia: So, what if my problem is not a medical one? Because it
all started with meditation.. I was fine up until then. I can't concentrate
on anything else except the restlessness caused by this uneasy breathing
process... I feel like I'm forcing myself to breathe ... like it switched from
automatic to manual.

Sitaram: tell me.... do you mean you just started recently to meditate,
and THAT is when problem started. OR do you mean that you had been
meditating for a number of weeks or months PREVIOUS to this, but
suddenly you have a problem

StudentInIndia: No actually I had stopped meditating for more than 8
months and I started a week back, I guess.... and, that's when this
problem started.

Sitaram: how long had you meditated before you stopped

StudentInIndia: 2 months..

Sitaram: What is you age right now

StudentInIndia: 18

Sitaram: Do you notice any other problems... has your sleep changed...
that is, do you sleep a lot more or a lot less than earlier

Sitaram: How is your appetite.... do you eat more, or less than you used
to?

Do you feel rested after sleep

Are you on any medications....

Have you changed your diet recently

StudentInIndia: My sleep has reduced...so has my appetite... yes... I am
on medications... yeh, I have changed my diet as well...

Sitaram: Since you are female, I must ask you, do you notice any
difference in menstrual cycle,... is it regular.... do you experience
unusual discomfort with it, that you did not have before

Sitaram: What medications do you take

StudentInIndia: But, I taking those pills for over 2 months, the problem
started recently.

StudentInIndia: Nope... it is almost the same.

Sitaram: How is urination and bowel movements... any diarheah or
constipation

Sitaram: by the way,.... always be on lookout for sudden changes in
color, odor, frequency.... as a sign of possible health problem

StudentInIndia: Well, it's called finnesteride... and, it's to help with my
hormonal imbalance.... and, another pill to check the excess insulin and
multi-vitamins....

Sitaram: hmmm.... ok... so you inject insulin

StudentInIndia: No...

StudentInIndia: I don't need to...

StudentInIndia: My pancreas produce an excess of it...

Sitaram: ohh.. you are the type 2 diabetic... are you diabetic at all

Sitaram: ohhhhh

StudentInIndia: I'm not diabetic.

Sitaram: so you are what, hypoglycemic. You have low sugar?

StudentInIndia: No...I have something called polysystic ovaries...

Sitaram: ok...

StudentInIndia: and, this results in the excessive production of insulin....

Sitaram: hmm... so, how often do you see doctor,.... to get blood tests

Sitaram: when you sleep, do you usually dream,... can you remember
dreams.... have you experienced a recent change in dream activity.... for
example nightmares

StudentInIndia: Not regularly... I saw her a month back..and, I have an
appointment in April.

Sitaram: do you use any tobacco, alcohol, or recreational drugs

StudentInIndia: No...nothing of that sort.

StudentInIndia: No...my dreams were always disturbing....

StudentInIndia: disturbing in the sense... they always used to muddle my
head first thing in the morning.

Sitaram: do you take any form of birth control medication (sorry, but
these are important questions)

StudentInIndia: No, I don't...

StudentInIndia: I never have.

Sitaram: ok, and you are not sexually active, so there is no chance of
pregnancy... right?

StudentInIndia: Yes...

Sitaram: Do you have any nausea, vomiting?

StudentInIndia: No...

Sitaram: Does anyone inform you suddenly, recently that you have bad
breath,... how are your teeth, do you see dentist... any bleeding of gums?
Do you brush and floss regularly?

StudentInIndia: Yeh, I do... nope...no one has said anything about my
breath....

Sitaram: Do you drink plenty of water each day,... and is it good water...
pure...

StudentInIndia: No...maybe not... 'cus people have been telling my that
my lips are always chapped.

Sitaram: Do you ever fast from foods for prolonged periods... like an
entire day?

How many meals do you eat per say

StudentInIndia: 3 meals..

Sitaram: good. that is important

Sitaram: would you describe yourself as very skinny, or plump, or just
proper body weight?

Are you recently gaining or losing weight

Do you get your blood pressure checked regularly... can you get a
machine to test yourself from drugstore

Have you ever had high or low pressure

StudentInIndia: not skinny not plump.... I was quite thin before but I have
put on weight... but, I don't think I'm plump.... I don't know...

Sitaram: it is better that you have gained some weight

StudentInIndia: never checked it.

Sitaram: that is important, to check blood pressure...

StudentInIndia: I din't think it was important because I'm not that old.

Sitaram: do you have a thermometer to periodically check your
temperature,

Does your doctor take your pressure

We must not rule anything out...

StudentInIndia: I don't check it... but, I have been feeling a lot of heat
inside my body... like the kinda feeling you'd get when you have fever...
but, it is a lil milder than that.

Sitaram: there is a symptom/condition called ANHEDONIA,.... in ancient
greek, hedonee means enjoyment of what is pleasing. Anhedonia is a
condition where you cannot find enjoyment in normal things,.... like food,
beverage.... companionship

StudentInIndia: okay..

Sitaram: you should get a thermometer adn start to keep a daily log of
temperature.... normal is 98.6 Fahrenheit

StudentInIndia: Yeh..okay.

Sitaram: in that log, make some notes... better yet, get a diary with a
page for each day...or get a notebook and use like diary

Sitaram: record your temperature and weight each day

StudentInIndia: okay...

Sitaram: if you can get a blood pressure machine, then take pressure
once a day

Sitaram: and record on that page

StudentInIndia: ok..

Sitaram: now, each morning in that book, jot down briefly anything you
remember from dreams,... or if you had nightmare

Sitaram: also... how many hours do you sleep on average each night...

StudentInIndia: 8

Sitaram: and do you wake up during the night...

Sitaram: and if you wake up.... how many times do you wake up

Sitaram: also... mention your symptoms to doctor... and ask if chest
x-ray is possible...

StudentInIndia: oh... that's been happening every now and then... I wake
up and get scared.

StudentInIndia: Why a chest x-ray?

Sitaram: to be certain that lungs are clear
do you use lots of salt in your food ?

Do you often feel very thirsty during the day?

StudentInIndia: Something is wrong with my wind pipe, I'm sure... I can
feel it in the mouth region but it has blocked itself from the nostrils.... or
something... I can't explain.

Sitaram: do you sneeze often...

StudentInIndia: Nope...I don't....

Sitaram: do you have runny nose... or blow your nose often

StudentInIndia: No...

Sitaram: ok... hmmm

Sitaram: do you get some exercise every day.... long walks... walking
up stairs

StudentInIndia: Yeh, I do..

Sitaram: that is good

StudentInIndia: Well, I'm thinking it has something to do with changes in my energy or breath body...

Sitaram: hmmm.. let me think

Sitaram: do you ever feel a sense of panic...where you breath quickly?

StudentInIndia: Yeh...many times...

Sitaram: ok... this is important...

Sitaram: whenever you feel that way,... you must sit down and begin to
slowly count backwards from 100

Sitaram: this cognitive exercise will disrupt the syndrome of panic
attack...

StudentInIndia: even when it comes to fear?

Sitaram: well... you must find a mental exercise to stop the fear... to
break that thought pattern

Sitaram: now, it would be very useful if you would cut and paste and
print our our chat, and give it to your doctor... so he can quickly see what
is going on

Sitaram: or, i can emaiil this chat to you if you like

StudentInIndia: ...okay... I mentioned this to my mom yesterday and she
started checking my pulse...

Sitaram: aha, this is good, your mother has knowledge in health issues...

Sitaram: perhaps she should read this chat of ours

StudentInIndia: Yes....

Sitaram: now... another question...

Sitaram: do you find that you swing back and forth between feelings of
great enthusiasm and energy and hopefulness.... and then swing to
opposite of weary, hopeless.

StudentInIndia: Yes.... almost always....

Sitaram: are you sometimes bubbly, and giggling.... and othertimes very
sad

Sitaram: how often do you find yourself crying... weeping

Sitaram: once a month, once a week, every day

StudentInIndia: Well, I was doing that just today...

StudentInIndia: and, a few days back... I was very inspired, etc.

StudentInIndia: Well, last year was very rough for me.... I was chronically
despondent... well, I kinda emerged from that last month...and, now I
started meditating..

Sitaram: ok... listen.. these symptoms may possibly mean that you have
some degree of imbalance in the brain chemistry which controls such
emotions

Sitaram: and you may possibly respond well to certain antidepressant
medications, to correct this imbalance...

StudentInIndia: But, I'm not depressed.... anymore..

Sitaram: the age of 18 is a common time in life for such imbalances to
show themselves

Sitaram: have you ever had thoughts of suicide

StudentInIndia: About 2 and a half years back, but from July - November
2005, I was wishing for death.

StudentInIndia: ...but, not suicide.

Sitaram: it is not uncommon in the teenage years to have such feelings...

StudentInIndia: with and without a reason?

Sitaram: ha ha, because, life stinks
Sitaram: or seems to sometimes

StudentInIndia: No...like if someone's experienced a tragedy in his
life..like he lost his eyes or he got impaired of lost someone he loved,
etc...

StudentInIndia: Is that normal or abnormal?

Sitaram: anyway... you need to have a chest xray, to rule out lung
problems

Sitaram: it is normal in teenage years to have some such feelings..

Sitaram: if it becomes constant... or if you begin to plan a suicide... then
of course it is a very serious problem, and not normal...

StudentInIndia: yeh..ok.

Sitaram: you must definitely print all of this chat out, and have your
mother read it... and give it to a doctor as well

StudentInIndia: you mean a shrink? (psychiatrist)

Sitaram: it is not good that your family scolds you constantly for your
religious interests, and tells you that you just take up space, or waste
space

Sitaram: a regular physician may help you, internal medicine

StudentInIndia: I see.

StudentInIndia: Yeh...I know that...

Sitaram: oh... and , it would be helpful to have some electrocardiogram,
check out your heart

StudentInIndia: but, I come from a broken home.

StudentInIndia: Oh, I have been experiencing a sharp pain in the middle
of my chest region... between the ribcage...

Sitaram: in other words, if you family keeps scolding you regarding your
life, it will not help you, and it will only make your problems worse

Sitaram: if they fight with you, or say hurtful things, it will only increase
your anxiety and depression...

Sitaram: and it will cause you to have low self esteem...

StudentInIndia: That's extremely true.... that was why I was crying today.

Sitaram: they must come to realize that you have a serious problem
(what exactly we are not certain)... and they must realize that you may
possibly recover naturally during the next year or two

Sitaram: have you finished your school studies....
Sitaram: or do you attend school

StudentInIndia: I'm in college now.
Sitaram: ok... and what is your major of study

StudentInIndia: English and communication skills.

Sitaram: and do you enjoy school, ... do examinations make you nervous

StudentInIndia: Yeh...I have examination-anxiety and phobia.

Sitaram: how many years of school do you have left

Sitaram: how are your grades

StudentInIndia: I kinda like it... but, only when I'm not asked to discuss
or interact with the teachers in class.

Sitaram: how long until you graduate

StudentInIndia: 2 years.

Sitaram: hmmm... do you think you can make it...

Sitaram: do you want to drop out...

StudentInIndia: Right now, yeh... but, a few months back...I was to give
up and run away to fine a place of respite...

Sitaram: is the college expensive, is it a burden upon your family

StudentInIndia: Well, my grades are quite good...but, most times I don't
write my exams... I kinda evade them...

StudentInIndia: No, it isn't.

Sitaram: that is good..
Sitaram: which city are you in

StudentInIndia: I live in India..

Sitaram: i know
Sitaram: are you in Mumbai

StudentInIndia: South India... Chennai...
Sitaram: aha, Chennai

StudentInIndia: City affected by the Tsunami in 2004.

Sitaram: you speak tamil

StudentInIndia: Not really..

Sitaram: hindi?

StudentInIndia: I'm a native of Andra..
StudentInIndia: Telugu..

Sitaram: ok... telugu
StudentInIndia: Yeh.
Sitaram: that is the language of Sai Baba, by the way

StudentInIndia: Yeh..I know.

Sitaram: ok.. hmmm...
StudentInIndia: Hm...do you really think I have mental illness?

Sitaram: there is some possibility,... from the things you have told me...
it must not be ruled out

StudentInIndia: Because my mom keeps reiterating that all the time...
That I'm neurotic and mentally ill...

Sitaram: you know... a skilled physician could try you for a while on
different medications, to see how you do

Sitaram: well... scolding is not helpful...

Sitaram: what is helpful is to find a medication, if possible, and a diet,
and a routine, and a life pattern which will help you to prosper and be
happy, and enjoy life

StudentInIndia: I think for that I need to go to a monastery...

StudentInIndia: It is not possible here where I live...

Sitaram: how do you feel about yourself... do you see yourself as
attractive, popular

StudentInIndia: No way... not at all....

Sitaram: so, tell me how you see yourself

StudentInIndia: I was always over-shadowed my the masses....

StudentInIndia: by the masses*

Sitaram: do you feel nervous in crowds... do you avoid lots of people and
try to be by yourself

StudentInIndia: I kinda had a massive complex back in school.... and, I'm
trying to work on that now... build my confidence... I have social
phobia... I like spending my time alone at home...

StudentInIndia: I'm trying to uhh block out my past...school-like, etc... so
I've been ignoring and avoiding everything that reminds me of my past
life.. school-life*

Sitaram: now, that is a sign of agoraphobia... fear of open crowded
places

Sitaram: would you describe yourself as super neat, average, or
somewhat sloppy and disorganized? How is your room... always neat, or
often cluttered

StudentInIndia: disorganized...and sloppy

Sitaram: ok... hmmm... just thinking.... scratching my brain

Sitaram: your mom really needs to read all of this.... you and your family
need the opinion of an impartial but trained observer, a counselor...
which is sort of what i am doing right now with you, in an effort to help

StudentInIndia: Oh my God... not a counselor...a clinical psychologist...
they are bad news.

StudentInIndia: okay, maybe I shouldn't generalize..

Sitaram: IF it IS the case that you have some diagnosable condition,
whether physical or mental, then it is important that YOU accept it, and
also your family... so that you can put aside arguments and harsh
words... and work on a solution to the problems, which may or may not
include medications

StudentInIndia: So, bottom-line is I need to go to a counselor?

Sitaram: you may have seen that old movie "The Sound of Music"...
where the young woman is a novice in a convent, and leaves to take care
of children in a family

Sitaram: well,... look... what i am doing with you right now is counseling.

StudentInIndia: Yes...

Sitaram: and if your mum reads it,... then it becomes family counseling

StudentInIndia: okay...

Sitaram: there is definitely some problem with you... and definitely a
problem with you and your family

StudentInIndia: I don't think she will... she thinks she knows everything
about me.

Sitaram: this is why the opinion of an impartial but trained observer is
important

StudentInIndia: Well my family has just a biological connection, according
to me....

Sitaram: well, but that very statement is your way to distance yourself,
to rationalize your feelings of rejection, resentment

Sitaram: possibly

StudentInIndia: Yeh, I want to distance myself from my family.... I don't
like the atmosphere, etc...

Sitaram: but... back to "The Sound of Music" movie...

StudentInIndia: ok..

Sitaram: there is a crucial scene where the young woman goes back to
the convent for advice from the old abbess (guru) of the convent

Sitaram: the abbess says, "Religious life is meant to be something that
we RUN TOWARDS. It is NOT meant to be a place where we RUN AWAY
from things, avoid things, escape things."

Sitaram: do you see how powerful that advice is...

StudentInIndia: Yes... That's a beautiful line..

Sitaram: you must not embark upon a religious path UNTIL you have
resolved your issues in the world, so that you may be certain that you are
RUNNING TOWARDS something in the renunciate life, and not simply
RUNNING AWAY from problems to escape them

Sitaram: BECAUSE,.. you see.. WHEREVERY YOU RUN, you will take your
problems with you...

StudentInIndia: That is why I'm still here..... but, I don't think I can solve
these issues....

Sitaram: i must give you a link to a post at my message board about the
poet C.P. Cavafy, and his poem

Sitaram: it is ONLY when we give up that failure is certain... as long as
we CONTINUE TO TRY, then there is always the hope and possibility for
success

Sitaram: let me get you that link now
Sitaram: you will like his poem
StudentInIndia: okay...sure..
StudentInIndia: I was using it as a form of escapism...but, now I am trying to improve my relationship with the world so I can move on.... I'm trying to resolve my issues, but I just get so emotionally involved at times...

Sitaram:

http://literarydiscussions.myfree...topic205.php&highlight=cavafy

The City

You said, "I will go to another land, I will go to another sea.
Another city will be found, a better one than this.
Every effort of mine is a condemnation of fate;
and my heart is -- like a corpse -- buried.
How long will my mind remain in this wasteland.
Wherever I turn my eyes, wherever I may look
I see black ruins of my life here,
where I spent so many years destroying and wasting."

You will find no new lands, you will find no other seas.
The city will follow you. You will roam the same
streets. And you will age in the same neighborhoods;
and you will grow gray in these same houses.
Always you will arrive in this city. Do not hope for any other --
There is no ship for you, there is no road.
As you have destroyed your life here
in this little corner, you have ruined it in the entire world.

Sitaram: does that link come up for you

StudentInIndia: Yeh, I'm reading it..

Sitaram: would you mind terribly, if i edit this chat,... and change your
name to something else, to disguise your identity, and post it... i think this
chat will be helpful for others.... but if you feel uncomfortable , then i
shall not edit and post it

StudentInIndia: Its okay... if it's gonna help someone... I'd be more than
glad to help....

Sitaram: thanks... you are not alone in your problems

Sitaram: many have similar experiences

StudentInIndia: Really? I have not met anyone around here, like myself.

Sitaram: in some ways, you situation resembles mine

Sitaram: when i was an adolescent
Sitaram: and, i spent time in a monastery

StudentInIndia: oh...why did you come back?

Sitaram: after one year, i saw that i was not suited to the life
Sitaram: i came to know others who were...

StudentInIndia: ...I see.

Sitaram: do you know that, in Buddhism, the monk is perfectly free, at
any time in life, to give back the begging bowl and robe, and return to
worldly life

StudentInIndia: Yeh...even in Hinduism...

StudentInIndia: I completely resonate with Odysseus.

Sitaram: it is not like the permanent vows of Christian monasticism

Sitaram: where there is a shame to leave and return to the world

StudentInIndia: Oh...

Sitaram: in the Ramayan, when Shabiri meets Ram...

Sitaram: she asks him to teach her the devotional excellences...

Sitaram: in the movie version of Ramanand Sagar,.. Ram laughs and
says, "Well, you already have mastered them quite well, but if you wish, I
shall tell you"

Sitaram: but... the VERY FIRST thing Ram mentions is "Association",
Sangha,

StudentInIndia: oh...

Sitaram: now... the ancient list is

Sravana, Kirtana, Smarana, Padasevana,

Archana, Vandana, Sakhya, Dasya, Atmanivedana

http://bhagavadgitausa.com/HYMNS%20OF%20SANKARA.htm

StudentInIndia: um....ancient list of devotional excellences?

Sitaram:

Sravana = hearing (the name and glory of the deity).
KIrtana = singing praise of the Lord.
Manana = thinking (about the deity).
pAdasevana = worshipping the feet of the Lord.
Arcana = homage to the Lord
Vandana = showing reverential obeisance to God.
DAsya = servitude to God.
SAkhya = friendship towards or with God.
Satputra (virtuous son) or kriya marga = rituals; (samipya mukti)
SanmArga = path of knowledge
AtmanivEdana = self-gift or offering one's self to God.
NididhyAsana = meditation, perceiving

Sitaram: so, in Tulsidas version, Ram has places Sangha first... association
But you see, Sravana, “Hearing” implies Sangha, association, fellowship,
like that of Garuda and Bushundi

Sitaram: my point is that,... through association, sangha,.... this is the
way that we can learn... make progress.

Sitaram: so, you see, you have association with me... simply through
words

Sitaram: but,.... you feel me , the actual person, through those words...
you know me, just as I know you....

Sitaram: so... there is something which takes place... a healing,... a
learning

Sitaram: these things are all connected with the guru chela relationship

Sitaram: which is how things are passed along, in a sampradaya

StudentInIndia: Okay...

StudentInIndia: It's hard to find such associations...
StudentInIndia: here...

Sitaram: can you feel what is happening as we converse

Sitaram: do you feel something

StudentInIndia: Yes... I am learning more about myself.... and life..
StudentInIndia: I feel your influence..

Sitaram: can you see me in your mind...

Sitaram: exactly...

Sitaram: now... this influence will continue, even after my eventual death...

Sitaram: this is the power of speech... but... not ordinary speech....

Sitaram: you see, in the Ramayan... Garuda is the mighty mount (vehicle) of VIshnu himself

StudentInIndia: Yeh...

Sitaram: BUT... Garuda is shaken when he sees the avatar Ram afflicted
with the serpent weapons, and paralized

Sitaram: but.. you see, Garuda, the mighty, must come for association
with Bushundi the humble crow...

Sitaram: and it is in listening to the divine Lila, the dohas, of the Holy
Lake of the Acts of Ram

Sitaram: the Ramacharitamanassa....

Sitaram: this is how Garuda is healed by association... with Bushundi

Sitaram: you shall also be healed in a similar fashion

StudentInIndia: oh..

StudentInIndia: My breathing problem is back... a feel is uneasiness in my
chest...

Sitaram: well... you see, that is a sign that we are coming after it, with a
cure... and like a beast, it is angry

Sitaram: it does not want to be cast out...

Sitaram: so.. you must begin to count backwards... in your mind, not
aloud.. from 100

StudentInIndia: Yeh...but, how do I even begin to cast it out....
StudentInIndia: okay.
StudentInIndia: Should I stop meditating?

Sitaram: yes, stop meditating
Sitaram: start counting...

StudentInIndia: Like sit in Padmasana and count?

Sitaram: and try to find a dvd or vhs tape of Ramanand Sagar's Ramayan... in Hindi...

Sitaram: i would say, lie down... mentally count backwards...
Sitaram: slowly...

StudentInIndia: Does it have English subtitles?

Sitaram: yes... that is what i watched
Sitaram: or, if you find an English dubbed version
Sitaram: but.. it is nice to hear the Hindi, as you read

StudentInIndia: oh, okay.
Sitaram: try to rent such tapes... and watch one episode per day
StudentInIndia: When I was in school I was a culturally confused kid.
StudentInIndia: as most Indian kids are...these days.

Sitaram: Tulsidas said, regarding the importance of association, "One
particle of dust associates with the rain, and is carried downwards, and
becomes part of the mud. But another dust particle associates with the
wind, and is carried upwards to become part of a beautiful cloud"

Sitaram: this is the great difference which association (sangha) can make

StudentInIndia: Now it feels like I'm left with no identity and no sense of
belonging... the only time when I feel alive is when I am contemplating on
God or engaged in such thought.

Sitaram: your homework assignment from me is to start watching some
of the Ramayan each day....

StudentInIndia: Okay...but, I don't know where to find it.

Sitaram: well.... search in google,.... or ask around, to borrow it..

StudentInIndia: Maybe I'll download it off the net.

Sitaram: see what is possible... otherwise, try to get the book of
Ramayan, by tulsidas, in english

StudentInIndia: Is it in the story form or like an epic?

Sitaram: yes

Sitaram: i think you can find it on the internet

StudentInIndia: oh...I found sites but you gotta order the dvd...not
downloadable version.

StudentInIndia: I'm experiencing some kinda unique problem... I've
never heard of anybody being suffocated by the own breath...before.

Sitaram: http://www.bluedove.com/Hindu_Ramayana.htm

Sitaram: do not by a summary... try to get the actual dohas in english,
with the hindi underneath

StudentInIndia: I'm experiencing some kinda unique problem... I've
never heard of anybody being suffocated by the own breath...before. I'm
not any to synchronise my breath with anyother activity...not even
thought. Even now, typing is the secondary activity, breathis is the
primary. It is usually the other way round....

StudentInIndia: Ok...will do.

StudentInIndia: able to synchronise*

StudentInIndia: Sorry about the typos...not able to concentrate on
anything except the suffocation.

StudentInIndia: Maybe I have asthma...

Sitaram: oh,... good thought.. asma

StudentInIndia: Perhaps....

StudentInIndia: How do I know if I do?

Sitaram: doctor... pulmonary specialist perhaps

StudentInIndia: okay...

Sitaram:

http://www.bombayave.com/product_...;OVKEY=ramayana&OVMTC=content

Sitaram: Ramayana in DVD

StudentInIndia: What is the difference between the Tulisidas version and
the Valmiki one?

Sitaram: i have both... you should go with Tulsidas
Sitaram: http://www.ncte-in.org/pub/gandhi/chap6.htm

Sitaram: this article is interesting
Sitaram: do you meet many people who dislike Gandhi... who say negative things, just curious

StudentInIndia: Well...yeh...um... I used to..
StudentInIndia: One of my teachers was criticizing him ....the other day.
StudentInIndia: I used to meet people like that* I meant.

Sitaram: i am just curious... i meet people who hate Gandhi,... yet others
think so highly of him

Sitaram: just the other day, what?

StudentInIndia: Oh...Well, no matter what people say, they have no
reason to criticize him 'cus he has evolved more than them....

Sitaram: what did you hear

StudentInIndia: I meant, my teachers was telling the class how Gandhiji
focused on the negative aspects of class distinction and coined the term
"Untouchables".

Sitaram: gandhi coined the term Harijan, meaning beloved by god,... but
they wanted to be called Dalit

Sitaram: but.. the castes and untouchable are from ancient time... i
think... gandhi did not start it

StudentInIndia: Yeh...true...

StudentInIndia: But, nobody has the right to criticise Gandhiji...atleast the
people I know.... they have not even come close to reaching that
state/stage of spiritual evolution.

Sitaram: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_caste_system

Sitaram:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indi...e_system#Untouchables_.28Dalit.29

Sitaram:

http://www.navhindtimes.com/stories.php?part=news&Story_ID=08123

Sitaram: In the beginning, they were called Chandals, Hinajatyo,
Avarnas, Antyaijas, Achhjuts, Pariahs, Namasudras, untouchables and
outcastes etc.

StudentInIndia: In the beginning it was not heriditary.

Sitaram: Another term which gained currency for the identity of Dalits in
the beginning of the 1930s and is still commonly used, was Harijan. A
general misconception is that Mahatma Gandhi coined the term “Harijan”.
The term was originally used by Gujarati poet-saint Narsinha Mehta.

StudentInIndia: But, it was popularized by him....
StudentInIndia: He being the father of the nation.

StudentInIndia: Now, there is so much discrimination in the reverse order.

Sitaram: in 1970, a new identity was propagated with the term “Dalit”, a
word in the Marathi language derived from Sanskrit. In a 1931 dictionary,
the word is defined as `ground’ or `broken’ or reduced to pieces
generally. It was seemingly first used in the context of caste oppression
by the great 19th century reformer Jyotiba Phule.

StudentInIndia: The tribals and backward castes(as they call them) are
being given more preference than the forward castes(Brahmins, various
sects of vaishyas, etc.)

StudentInIndia: oh, ok.

Sitaram: In September 1932, while in jail, Gandhi undertook a “fast unto
death” to improve the status of the Hindu Untouchables. Gandhi became
the leader of the movement in India dedicated to eradicating the unjust
social and economic aspects of the caste system

StudentInIndia: Yeh...it backfired...

StudentInIndia: Because of the politicians..

Sitaram: did i help you at all.. do you feel a little better
Sitaram: do you feel you have a plan now

StudentInIndia: I do, of course... to know there is someone to empathize
with me....

Sitaram: will you save this dialogue and show your mom

Sitaram: and perhaps show doctor

StudentInIndia: Yes, but my breathing problem is not getting any better...
my chest hurts bad...

Sitaram: x-ray

Sitaram: to see what is going on

Sitaram: blood work..

Sitaram: lab analysis

StudentInIndia: Is it possibly that I am somehow subconsciously
restricting my breath?

Sitaram: perhaps... he can prescribe some xanax,.... to relax... good for
panic attacks

Sitaram: well... it could be your subconscious wants an excuse to leave
school

Sitaram: or something like that
Sitaram: the mind is very powerful

StudentInIndia: I know... it's harnessing its power on me right now... this
has been going on for 4 days.

Sitaram: sure... but follow through on all these things...
Sitaram: do you need an email of this transcript
Sitaram: or can you cut and paste and save to disk
Sitaram: and print later
StudentInIndia: I'm doing that.
Sitaram: ok... good
StudentInIndia: Goodnight...
Sitaram: yes....
Sitaram: remember your body is like a machine
Sitaram: you are its caretaker...
Sitaram: you must treat it properly, and go in for repairs
Sitaram: stewardship
Sitaram: a steward takes care of property that belongs to someone else

Sitaram: ok... shuba ratri
StudentInIndia: shuba ratri

Sitaram · Site Admin Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 1079

StudentInIndia : Hey

literarydiscussions: how is it going for you.... how is your health

StudentInIndia : Much better after I stopped meditating.

literarydiscussions: I discussed your problem with a woman who is a
medical student in Iran, and the first thing she suggested was to stop
meditating

StudentInIndia : I see...
StudentInIndia : So, I can't meditate.....ever?

literarydiscussions: i emailed a cardiologist childhood friend, but have not
heard back yet

literarydiscussions: well,.... give it a rest, and lets see how you feel after
a few months

StudentInIndia : Oh...

StudentInIndia : a few months....

literarydiscussions: take a step at a time
literarydiscussions: forever is a long time
literarydiscussions: worry about today and tomorrow
literarydiscussions: let forever worry about itself

StudentInIndia : Then what do I do with my life?...I know meditation is
the means, etc. etc. But, it adds meaning and purpose to my life...
spirituality gives me something to live for.

literarydiscussions: be patient,... try to get through school, so that school
will be out of the way

literarydiscussions: did you give your mother our chat to read
literarydiscussions: did you visit a doctor

StudentInIndia : Yes..she did...
StudentInIndia : No, I din't...

StudentInIndia : She says she doesn't scold me...that I'm the one
oppressing her.

StudentInIndia : She says she's very patient with me, and for that she's
almost outstanding..... other people would never be able to put up with
my insanity or whatever.

literarydiscussions: it sounds like she would be too much in denial, to
narrow minded, to read something like that and be understanding about
your situation

literarydiscussions: but... she convicts herself with her very words.... for
if you are insane, then, she should try to get you medical assistance

StudentInIndia : She blames me for the fact that my bro flunked all his
papers in college...says, I was too rebellious and he learnt from me.

literarydiscussions: and, if you are insane, then, yelling at you will not
help, since a sick person cannot control herself

literarydiscussions: hmmm...

StudentInIndia : Yes....she wants me to get myself medical
assistance...she wants me to make the choice....

literarydiscussions: well, it cant hurt to see a doctor and try some
medication...

StudentInIndia : I've been feeling very low every since the breathing
problem occured.... as in, the fact that I can't meditate is just makin' me
feel like my life has no purpose... I get all my inspiration and motivation
from the fact that someday I'll be beyond all this suffering, etc... now I'm
just stangant or sinking...whichever.

literarydiscussions: why not concentrate on getting through these last 2
years of college... and once that is out of the way, and you have
successfully completed school,... THEN you can begin your spiritual career
and resume meditation

literarydiscussions: being angry or depressed is not going to solve or
change anything

literarydiscussions: perhaps your school studies will help take your mind
away from your other worries

StudentInIndia : Oh....hmm, I don't think I'll be able to handle 2 years of
anything without my spiritual life... it's the one that holds it all
together...or, I'll just go back to being an emotionally and physically
drained-out machine

StudentInIndia : I don't even like college, actually.... the only reason I'm
going is 'cus my parensts want me too.

literarydiscussions: your words show that you are setting yourself up for
failure, without having given it a try

StudentInIndia : Oh..I gotta go...nice talking to you...take care.

literarydiscussions: two years will pass very quickly...

Sitaram · Site Admin Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 1079

StudentInIndia: : Hey

literarydiscussions: hello

StudentInIndia: : You know, the other day I was having a discussion with
one of my teachers, and she was telling me how I should balance both
the worldly life and the spiritual life, and be practical.

literarydiscussions: i was trying to tell you the same thing

literarydiscussions: did i ever tell you to run off to a cave

StudentInIndia: : Yeh..but, what about the people who become monks?

literarydiscussions: didnt i tell you to finish school first

literarydiscussions: let me tell you something...

StudentInIndia: : You did...but, what about those people?

literarydiscussions: i have a book on my book shelf with a very long
title...

literarydiscussions: "Starets Amvrosy as Model for Starets Zossima in
Doestoevskys Novel Brothers Karamazov"

literarydiscussions: when I was 23, I read that book, which was all about
being a russian orthodox monk..

StudentInIndia: : ...okay.

StudentInIndia: : I see.

literarydiscussions: and i was certain that it was exactly what i wanted to
do with my life

literarydiscussions: so... i went to a russian orthodox monastery in USA....

literarydiscussions: but after some months, i was unhappy...

literarydiscussions: so I went to a greek monastery in USA... and spent 13
months there...

literarydiscussions: but... you see.. the books, like the one i mentioned....
made everything idealized...

literarydiscussions: it is a story...

literarydiscussions: like for example mark twains Huck Finn, sailing down
the mississippi river on a raft, and having adventures

StudentInIndia: : Okay...yeh.

literarydiscussions: if you really went on a raft, it would be boring, or
miserable

StudentInIndia: : But, I don't know whatelse to do with my life....

StudentInIndia: : My teacher said that "love for humanity" was the most
important thing, and she stressed on social service.

StudentInIndia: : Her idea of being selfless is that you help people
through their pain, and try to alleviate their suffering..... sitting in isolation
meditating is a very selfish thing.

literarydiscussions: hmmm....

StudentInIndia: : It made some sense, but isn't everybody suppose to
work towards emancipation?

literarydiscussions: you see... my step daughter, when she was 15, she
was very mentally unstable... dropped out of high school, got pregnant....
and you know NO MATTER WHAT COMMON SENSE you tried to talk to
her.... she WOULD NOT LISTEN to a word of it...

literarydiscussions: her mind was like a circular train track.... like a
broken record...

StudentInIndia: : Okay..

literarydiscussions: she kept coming back again and again and again to
the same ideas.... and she would shop around with many people for
advice, UNTIL she could find someone who would advise her to DO
EXACLTLY what she wanted to do

literarydiscussions: honest to god... i am telling you the exact truth

StudentInIndia: : Okay..

StudentInIndia: : I get it.

StudentInIndia: : So, how do I know when I'm actually ready for the life
of a renunciate?

literarydiscussions: to be perfectly honest.... i would say that you should
set a goal for yourself, to finish school, get a job, leave home, stay single,
and support yourself , and no dating,... until you are 35...

literarydiscussions: IF you can manage that stability... THEN, perhaps you
have the strength for ascetic life...

StudentInIndia: : Oh....yes, that was exactly what I had in mind, a year
back.

literarydiscussions: and... if you CANNOT MANAGE that simple plan... then
how on earth shall you manage the ascetic life which is 100 TIMES MORE
DIFFICULT

StudentInIndia: : I know.

literarydiscussions: so... look... i dont want to be cruel.. but lately, you
cannot even manage breathing (seriously)....

literarydiscussions: so.. how are you going to live in a cave

literarydiscussions: it all comes back to that "sound of music"...

literarydiscussions: you want to RUN AWAY from things, and enter the
renunciate life...

literarydiscussions: but... you should be RUNNING towards things

StudentInIndia: : She was trying to tell me that I have my duty to my
parents. I don't get this duty thingy.... what do you mean duty to parents?
Is it my duty to make sure that their family name is carried on from
generation to generation? Is it my duty to get a secure position in society
for them? How can someone tell me I have duty towards anybody? Don't I
have a duty towards myself? ...my growth and progress?

literarydiscussions: you see life now as tough... and you imagine some
idyllic life as a monk

literarydiscussions: well,... here you are going in your broken record
circle.... and no matter what teacher or Sitaram tells you, you will come
right around again, to objections, to justfications

StudentInIndia: : No...I'm just wondering.

StudentInIndia: : I understand what you people are saying, and hence
I'm going to college, etc.

literarydiscussions: forget about your parents.. YOU HAVE A
RESPONSIBLITY to yourself... to take care of yourself, and not endanger
yourself

StudentInIndia: : I know I'm not ready for it, yet....

literarydiscussions: if you finish school, and turn 21.. you have the right to
move off, and live your life... live for yourself, you do not have a duty to
stay with your parents...

StudentInIndia: : But, someday I will be... and, then when I wanna leave
people around me will object, they would say that I have my
responsibilities which I cannot SELFISHLY leave behind.

literarydiscussions: but... the more important point is you have a duty to
yourself.... not to do bad things for yourself

literarydiscussions: look... whatever it is that you really decide to do...
JUST DO IT....dont spend hours or weeks or years debating and hesitating

literarydiscussions: just DO IT

literarydiscussions: that is advice number one

literarydiscussions: a big sure sign of a neurotic person is someone who
just goes in circles,... constantly harping on the same thing, but never
making any move, any decision...

StudentInIndia: : Most people are like that.

literarydiscussions: instead of spending EVERY WAKING hour of your
life.... going over and over and over this same stuff.... try reading a
book.... try learning something new.... and it will distract your mind from
all this miserable neurotic nonsense...

literarydiscussions: and you will be doing something constructive with
your time

StudentInIndia: : you're right.

literarydiscussions: your damn right i am right

literarydiscussions: look at that jesuit priest who spent his whole life with
all those lowest caste vishwa karam children, teaching them all violin....

literarydiscussions: now, HE did something meaningful with his life... AND
, he was a form of renunciate

literarydiscussions: and believe me, his life was probably 1000 times
more difficult and annoying than your life

literarydiscussions: look... if it really is the case that you have some
chemical imbalance... if you are bipolar manic depressive... then nothing
except medication will help

literarydiscussions: and even meds may not help

StudentInIndia: : The problem with my is that I'm emotionally unstable...
and, impulsive... and, also cannot do anything unless my emotions allow
me to....

StudentInIndia: : me*

literarydiscussions: or, if you are in the beginnings of schizophrenia...
then.. same thing... only meds can help, and they may not help

literarydiscussions: that is why i told you to go back to the doctor

StudentInIndia: : How would a physician know if I'm emotionally
unstable?

literarydiscussions: but, i will not be surprised if, one year from now, you
are still going in the same circles... still wondering what you should do,
still feeling miserable... and perhaps no closer towards graduation

StudentInIndia: : Yeh, perhaps..... Confusion leads to more confusion...

StudentInIndia: : The only reason I decided to go to college was for my
parents, and I knew that if I had to be a spiritual person, I had to go
beyond my likes and dislikes.....

StudentInIndia: : But, because of college work and exams, etc... I can't
read the books I wanna read, etc. So, I feel it is taking me away from
constant contemplation on God...

literarydiscussions: look.. i dont want to hurt your feelings.... i try to be
gentle and kind, and make only suggestions... but from time you first talk
to me, i was pretty certain you are deeply disturbed... you need help, you
need medical help... running off to some imagined idyllic life in a
monastery, or a cave... is delusional...

literarydiscussions: no such life exists...

literarydiscussions: many such places are filled with corrupt people and
con men,....

literarydiscussions: there are a small number of genuine sincere religious
people in world, and a whole lot of phonies who are evil

StudentInIndia: : Deeply disturbed?....like insane and psychotic?

StudentInIndia: : hmmm...okay.

StudentInIndia: : Well, uh...sorry to impose my problems on you.

literarydiscussions: its ok...

literarydiscussions: my wife is in the next room, bloated like a baloon,
because of clots in her body... they want to put her in hospital , but
waiting for a bed....

literarydiscussions: she is going to sleep now...

literarydiscussions: she wheezes, terrible problem breathing.. because of
all the water, swelling...

StudentInIndia: : oh...

StudentInIndia: : I'm sorry.

StudentInIndia: : Is she ever gonna recover?

literarydiscussions: no... probably not...

literarydiscussions: it is not a question of recovery... but a question of
staying alive, another month, another year...

StudentInIndia: : oh...

literarydiscussions: that is the situation of a lot of people in the world, with
kidney disease, liver disease, heart disease, cancer, aids... etc

StudentInIndia: : and, here I am cribbin about my condition............

literarydiscussions: well.. i did not have in mind that point, when i
mentioned such problems

literarydiscussions: it is kind ot sick to suggest that someone cheer up by
comparing with the miseries of others

StudentInIndia: : I know...but, I was just talking about my hypocrisy.

literarydiscussions: you know... let me say this... my wife is very mentally
stable and strong, stronger than me.. so she can face these things
bravely.... but.. if it is the case that you are suffering from the illness of
depression, or schizophrenia... then perhaps your suffering is greater than
hers

StudentInIndia: : I'm pretty sure I'm not psychotic.... perhaps, I suffer
from neurosis and emotional instability. I always experience extreme of
emotions... never moderate..... they always get the best of me.

StudentInIndia: : I don't think that is manic depression...and, I don't
know what bipolar is really? I think it has something to do with the two
extremeties...but, my emotional swings don't last for more than a week
.... never for a long period of time.

literarydiscussions: look... it doesnt really matter WHAT the cause of your
problems is.... bottom line,... you have so many problems that you cannot
lead a full life, and you are constantly miserable...

StudentInIndia: : Yeh....

literarydiscussions: if your quality of life stinks, does it matter whether it
is chemical imbalance, or a demons curse...

literarydiscussions: bottom line, life stinks for you...

literarydiscussions: because what you CAN do, you choose not to do, and
what you think you want to do, is impossible for you to attempt

StudentInIndia: : okay.

StudentInIndia: : An astrologer told me that you are emotional because
you were born that way....

literarydiscussions: a lot of astrologers are full of baloney...

literarydiscussions: so, if doctor tells my wife "oh, you are sick because
thats just the way you are"... then how has he helped

literarydiscussions: what nonsense

literarydiscussions: you dont need people telling you crap like that

literarydiscussions: common

literarydiscussions: helen keller was born deaf and blind... but she did
something about it...

StudentInIndia: : Well, I just thought it was part of my nature and I was
just an emotionalist...

literarydiscussions: you should go watch an old movie of the helen keller
story

StudentInIndia: : I'm doing an essay written by her in one of my
classes... "Three Days to See."

literarydiscussions: that is just a "cop out".... to enable yourself,... to
wallow in your misery, and make no effort to get out of your situation

literarydiscussions: whatever happened with this business about you living
with some man, and his parents for a month or two.. and he is some
spiritual something or other...

literarydiscussions: what was that all about

StudentInIndia: : Oh, yeh... well, thing is he wasn't ready to help me
out... I finally understood that... he needs to help himself first. He is kinda
lost and looking for emotional security in some person, etc. ... and, he's
making wrong choices...

literarydiscussions: the whole thing sounded very fishy to me

literarydiscussions: you know what would probably do you a world of
good.... (but maybe i am wrong)...

literarydiscussions: if you volunteered at some old age home... and did a
kind of mother theresa thing.... seriously

literarydiscussions: i mean, i spend a lot of time now around the severly
ill, ... with my wife... in hospitals...

StudentInIndia: : Oh...I had something like that in mind . I wanted to join
"Green Peace".

literarydiscussions: look... you can do it RIGHT IN YOUR OWN
COMMUNITY

StudentInIndia: : I want join*

literarydiscussions: you dont need to travel half way around the world to
find old sick dying poeple

literarydiscussions: peoople

StudentInIndia: : Yeh...I know..

literarydiscussions: i cant type

StudentInIndia: : oh?

literarydiscussions: so... you are such an impractical dreamer

literarydiscussions: i am tired, old, its late... my fingers are slipping

literarydiscussions: i mention helping old sick people, and you
immediately have to run off to join some crack pot movement...

literarydiscussions: find some poor sick old person near you... and wash
them, or feed them.... or straighten their place...

literarydiscussions: or read to them...

StudentInIndia: : okay...

literarydiscussions: help another person... and perhaps your spiritual eyes
will be opened to some new self understanding

StudentInIndia: : Learning things about yourself can be quite distressing.

StudentInIndia: : the things you've shut away for a long time...and,
things you deny...

literarydiscussions: come out of your fantasy world, and face reality

literarydiscussions: the longer you avoid it, the worse it will become for
you

literarydiscussions: already, you live in your own personal hell

literarydiscussions: a hell of your own creation

literarydiscussions: you wallow hour after hour in these pointless concerns
and debates that never see any resolution or decision

StudentInIndia: : yeh..

literarydiscussions: look... find SOMETHING constructive to do with your
time..

literarydiscussions: if you cant find a sick elderly person to help... then for
gods sake, go to the library and read a book...

literarydiscussions: read the encyclopedia...

literarydiscussions: do something with your mind and your time...

literarydiscussions: if you cant stand school, then get a job...

literarydiscussions: get some kind of focus in your life...

literarydiscussions: get a routine...

literarydiscussions: if you cant stand your family... then plan some
practical way to go to another city and support yourself

literarydiscussions: i have to log off, because it is 1:30am in morning, and
i must go to work tomorrow, and i am sleepy.... not your fault.. i like
talking to you...

literarydiscussions: if only i could help you... that would be wonderful

StudentInIndia: : I will save this and read it every now and then.

literarydiscussions: if only i could find the right words to say to you, to
heal your life,

literarydiscussions: to heal your mind...

StudentInIndia: : It gives me an insight into myself.

literarydiscussions: yes... put it on your mirror

literarydiscussions: look... no one really knows about god, and after life...

literarydiscussions: for all we know, this life is all there is...

literarydiscussions: so, make the most of it...

literarydiscussions: dont waste it

StudentInIndia: : Yeh...

StudentInIndia: : The N.G.O. thing will really help me....

StudentInIndia: : And...thank you ...

StudentInIndia: : for your time... and concern.

literarydiscussions: well... sometimes i feel like my own life is a waste

literarydiscussions: sometimes, i think about suicide also...

literarydiscussions: but... i do not constantly dwell and wallow in it...

literarydiscussions: i read every day,

literarydiscussions: i write

StudentInIndia: : I don't think so... you're experience is helping people
like me.... and, that is priceless....

literarydiscussions: i talk to people

literarydiscussions: well,... not many people care really.. on internet,
about my writings

literarydiscussions: only a few

literarydiscussions: and, i shall have great problems even supporting
myself in a few years...

literarydiscussions: which is why i think about ending my life

StudentInIndia: : What about your kids?

literarydiscussions: just as a practical measure

literarydiscussions: oh.. they are step children...and grown up.... and they
depend on their mother... but to them i am just a friend...

StudentInIndia: : No, I meant.... will they not help you out?

literarydiscussions: look... NO ONE ELSE can fix your problems except
YOU

literarydiscussions: if YOU dont fix yourself, then no one else will

StudentInIndia: : I know...but, financial assistance will help.....

literarydiscussions: what welfare?

literarydiscussions: they cut way back on that...

literarydiscussions: the economy is troubled all over

Sitaram · Site Admin Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 1079

EngineerInIran:
literarydiscussions: oy vey! that girl in india talked to me for an hour, until
1:30am this morning

literarydiscussions: she is really a disturbed person

EngineerInIran: oh am sorry to hear this

EngineerInIran: why is that?

literarydiscussions: well, good grief! her mind goes in such circles.... you
will see... i will email you transcript

EngineerInIran:

literarydiscussions: i have seen such a thing before

literarydiscussions: in disturbed people

EngineerInIran: what does it mean disturbed??

literarydiscussions: the normal personality confronts a problem, makes a
decision, take some action, and moves on, without dwelling

literarydiscussions: the neurotic aspect lies in the constant dwelling,
rehasing, and never being decisive or taking any action

EngineerInIran: yes I see

EngineerInIran: I guess I am a disturbed person!

literarydiscussions: i am emailing now
literarydiscussions: to you
literarydiscussions: so you can see
EngineerInIran: yes

EngineerInIran: have you written about meditation?
EngineerInIran: perhaps she doesnt like me to read her conversations?

literarydiscussions: she already gave permission

EngineerInIran: oh ok
literarydiscussions: she wants help, and she wants the talks to help others

EngineerInIran:
EngineerInIran: wise she is
EngineerInIran: what is her main problem?
literarydiscussions: actually yes... she has her good points
literarydiscussions: i have known some very bright, even wise, people
who are severly crippled with emotional illness

EngineerInIran: (I know!|)
EngineerInIran: what do you call emotional illness?
literarydiscussions: the main problem is very hard to put into words... but
is very obvious when you read transcripts of what she says...

EngineerInIran: Starets Amvrosy as Model for Starets Zossima in
Doestoevskys Novel Brothers Karamazov..wow I love to read this!!!

literarydiscussions: each organ and limb of a person has a natural
function, a purpose.... the hands, legs, liver, kidneys.... when they
perform in a "normative" fashion (normative means like most of the
successful healthy population)... then we say normal = normative...

literarydiscussions: yes, you would love that book

EngineerInIran: I read the brother karamazov and could say it was the
best book I have read

EngineerInIran: why she has no idea od her own..just focuses on what
her teachers says?

literarydiscussions: now, when it comes to mind, personality, behavior....
the course of ones life... we say that normative is, learning, completing
education, bonds of affection with relatives, making friends,.... a balance
of temperate work, nutrition, recreation, etc etc... leading to career,
income, selfsupporting, with practical skills in personal finance, some
savings,... perhaps....

literarydiscussions: well... you touch upon part of the problem

literarydiscussions: right there...

literarydiscussions: so above is what i describe of a normal balanced
healthy NORMATIVE life/person

literarydiscussions: balance is key word...

literarydiscussions: for example (e.g., exemplum grata)..... we all know
that we are mortal, and shall die in 60 to 90 years

EngineerInIran: yes

literarydiscussions: if we fear and tremble every day at the thought of our
mortality,.... and dream of some impossible OTHER situation..

literarydiscussions: that is neurotic...

EngineerInIran: true

literarydiscussions: on the otherhand,... if we NEVER give consideration to
the finite nature of our lives.... then... how to say.. this is a WRECKLESS
carelessness....

EngineerInIran: like yesterday..I started thinking how ugly or fat I am
...and it was a fact I couldnt change and I repeated to think about it over
and over mentally unstable!!!

literarydiscussions: so... BALANCE, between two extremes... is normal,
healthy...

EngineerInIran: yes

literarydiscussions: if i have sex with 100 people a week, this is abnormal
unhealthy extreme...

EngineerInIran:

literarydiscussions: if i never have sex once, never marry, no child....
then here is opposite extreme....

EngineerInIran: true

literarydiscussions: so... we have common sense of what is normal....
and we have an intuitive notion of imbalance,... abnormality, eccentricity

EngineerInIran: she doesnt like to continue her studies?

literarydiscussions: now.. healthy body spells success... e.g. we move
bowels once each day, proper weight, drink plenty of water, sleep restfull
reasonable hours each night....

EngineerInIran: haha

literarydiscussions: healthy personality also spells success in pattern,
routine....

literarydiscussions: we have friends... no violence... we do our tasks
assignments duty obligation....

literarydiscussions: we provide for future,.... we shop,.... clean, personal
hygene.... tidy room..

EngineerInIran: hey hey what are you goint to say with such fast speed?

literarydiscussions: you ask me what normal is... and how one defines

abnormal...

EngineerInIran: yes !I understand

literarydiscussions: as if you have rocks in your head from arabian
desert... and dont know yourself the answer

literarydiscussions: ha ha

EngineerInIran: well I just wanted to see from which aspect she is
abnormal

EngineerInIran: I didnt mean you explain what is normal in every detail

EngineerInIran:

EngineerInIran: perhaps I could talk with her

EngineerInIran: being a woman and young ..I could understand her
hesitations more

EngineerInIran: when you are young you have uncertain steps

EngineerInIran: I mean you doubt every second

literarydiscussions: well... if you did talk with her, that is good

literarydiscussions: well... especially in YOUR society, i think, your culture,
it is even harder for a woman

EngineerInIran: true

literarydiscussions: you or someone said to me, that you cannot trust
men.. it is very hard

EngineerInIran: true
EngineerInIran: but you can not trust them anywhere

literarydiscussions: i know... but... if you read bookseller of kabul,... in an
islamic culture of fundamentalists... then it is ever worse

EngineerInIran: of course you could trust them as friends or human
beings but not as husbands!

literarydiscussions: you see... when society tries to suppress behavior
through strict punishment... then.. it just goes undercover, underground,
and gets worse

EngineerInIran: yes

literarydiscussions: in such a culture.... were there is no dating, holding
hands, etc, etc... the male becomes a plotting predator.... obsessed with
his agenda of sexual adventure...

EngineerInIran: but when you have an open mind ..and able to think and
decide you wont fall in the well they prepared for you

literarydiscussions: and perhaps touches a child, or close relative, like
niece or cousin

EngineerInIran:
EngineerInIran: why this girl thinks she she live in a cave or what?

EngineerInIran: what she thinks she wants to do?

literarydiscussions: exactly

literarydiscussions: cave is no good

literarydiscussions: then... strange men will come and molest her

EngineerInIran:
literarydiscussions: well, it is truth

literarydiscussions: they may even molest a male

EngineerInIran: she thinks she is going to become a nun or what?

literarydiscussions: well, in india.... the idea is a hermit in cave in
himilayas

literarydiscussions: you see... many "lives of saints".... are romantic
exxagerations

literarydiscussions: perhaps there was some real person.... who led some
actual live...

EngineerInIran: she thinks she will help others that way?

literarydiscussions: but through the centuries... it becomes embroidered...

literarydiscussions: well, in india, people can seek self enlightenment,
liberation

literarydiscussions: as one path...

literarydiscussions: OR, their path can be work and service to others, like
Mother Theresa

EngineerInIran: they find it by going to mountains thinking?

literarydiscussions: actually..... you touch upon a centuries old debate..
which exists even in orthodox christianity

literarydiscussions: the "desert fathers" of 3rd century egypt,...went into
caves and desert

EngineerInIran: yes

EngineerInIran: but its a passive life

literarydiscussions: and there was dispute among people regarding which
life is better, and why it is better

EngineerInIran: I see

literarydiscussions: but.. if you read brothers karamazov... and see the
account which Zossima gives of his life in the world, his military career,
but how he gradually is attracted to the life as a monk...

literarydiscussions: then you will see in literature form a good example of
part of this debate

EngineerInIran: yes I read that

literarydiscussions: too bad you cannot have that paperback, "Ambrosy as
the model for Zossima... etc"

EngineerInIran: yes

literarydiscussions: then you would see a good introduction to orthodox
christian spirituality

EngineerInIran: you could explain to me though

literarydiscussions: whice is markedly different from protestant or roman
catholic...

literarydiscussions: well... over the course of weeks... i could take the
book, reread... and go step by step, point by point...

EngineerInIran:
EngineerInIran: yes

literarydiscussions: hmmm.. you know... actually.... that would be a
worthwhile project...

literarydiscussions: because i could post the narrative at a website.... and
many could read

EngineerInIran: I remember when I was her age.....I had this entrance
exam

EngineerInIran: (yes thank you)

EngineerInIran: I wanted to become a doctor

literarydiscussions: did you really, a doctor, eh?
literarydiscussions: just kidding

EngineerInIran: but here when you want to enter universtiy there is a
terribly difficult exam
EngineerInIran: just a few could pass

EngineerInIran: and I didnt think od any other way

EngineerInIran: I thought if I dont pass the exam and I dont become a
doctor I will die

literarydiscussions: interesting

EngineerInIran: I left no other choice for me

EngineerInIran: not even thinking about other jobs or other ways of
living

EngineerInIran: then imagine what happened?

literarydiscussions: aha... you see.... there is a HEALTHY aspect in which
we sometimes create a fiction for ourselves, and then we live in that
fiction, for the sake of some goal or agenda

literarydiscussions: and it is productive...

literarydiscussions: but then, there are UNHEALTHY fictions which we
create, and live in, which PREVENT us from achieving anything....

EngineerInIran: and you know what happened I made it so vital that
when I was taking the exam I was so stressful that I could take it
well!!!and I didnt pass!!!

literarydiscussions: children play at being soldiers, doctors, cow boys,....
mothers/parents...

EngineerInIran: it was obvious for everybody that I will go to the best
university and study medicine ..that put a terrible pressure upon me

literarydiscussions: yes.... indeed, a pressure

EngineerInIran: so I didnt succeed!!!
literarydiscussions: but... now you are a med student...

EngineerInIran: yes
literarydiscussions: so somehow, you succeeded

EngineerInIran: let me explain
literarydiscussions: ok
EngineerInIran: then nobody believef in me anymore

EngineerInIran: my mom was in terrible mood ..she used to cry each
night
EngineerInIran: as if I have died or what

literarydiscussions: oy vey!

EngineerInIran: and it was a terrible year ...there was a bad atmosphere
at home some family matters

EngineerInIran: so I felt I was alone
EngineerInIran: then I started thinking
EngineerInIran: that there are other aspects of life

literarydiscussions: you know, this is a wonderful story, useful, and you
tell it very well!

EngineerInIran: and perhaps its not the only important thing in he world my job

EngineerInIran: I also started reading

EngineerInIran: I got familiar with krishnamurthi then
EngineerInIran: read his books over and over that year
EngineerInIran: it helped me much
EngineerInIran: so the next year ..I had a more open mind
EngineerInIran: and I took the exam well
literarydiscussions: you give an excellent example of how something
philosophical or spiritual can empower us...

EngineerInIran: yes

EngineerInIran: now she thinks she has 1 or 2 ways only!!
literarydiscussions: this is why those people with a chip on their shoulders,
who hate all forms of religion, spirituality... well, they are in error....

EngineerInIran:
literarydiscussions: it is like those stories in west.... which nowadays, are
like humor or joke.... of someone who needs to do something... and fails,
but then an oriental kind of zen master karate kung foo type.... gives
them lessons

EngineerInIran: haha

literarydiscussions: and they stand on one foot by seashore, and meditate

literarydiscussions: and suddenly... they have this zen break through

literarydiscussions: like "THe Karate Kid"

EngineerInIran: haha

EngineerInIran: yes I put the things on gods shoulders I guess

literarydiscussions: the bart simpson cartoon makes fun of that...

EngineerInIran: haha

literarydiscussions: a chinese restaurant owner gives bart these menus to
place around town...

literarydiscussions: he teaches him just like "karate kid"... to be a "kung
foo master" of passing out menus...

EngineerInIran:
literarydiscussions: suddenly, bart is empowered to fly about town, in
supernatural fashion... and throw menu from great distance, to slip righ
under door

literarydiscussions: of course, such is comedy and parody

EngineerInIran: haha

literarydiscussions: if we read Camus "The Stranger"... well, it is
depressing... but the "hero" of the story, does learn how to cope with a
situation, and find some kind of meaning, even if it is on death row
awaiting execution

EngineerInIran: how?

literarydiscussions: much of existentialism has to do with learning such
lessons in places like nazi death camps...

literarydiscussions: oh.. i shall be late for work.. i must run now.. log off...
sorry.... story for another time

Sitaram · Site Admin Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 1079

EngineerInIran: tell the girl I shall be delighted to help her if I could
literarydiscussions: i shall
literarydiscussions: kindly little bug, you are
EngineerInIran: haha
literarydiscussions: i can see a full featured cartoon now
EngineerInIran:
literarydiscussions: ladybug and the dungbeetle
EngineerInIran: hahaha
literarydiscussions: we make such cartoons, with animals and bugs...
EngineerInIran: yes
literarydiscussions: surely you see them advertised
EngineerInIran:
EngineerInIran: you are the dungbeetle?
literarydiscussions: an i shall play the part of an old frog
EngineerInIran: haha
literarydiscussions: you ladybug...
literarydiscussions: india, dung beetle
literarydiscussions: me frog
literarydiscussions: and then a merry bull, in field, for some dung
EngineerInIran: anthor friend calls me fat fly
literarydiscussions: and, you see, the dung beetle does not want to do its job, because it dislikes dung
EngineerInIran: pumba timon?
literarydiscussions: it wants to be a bumblebee with pretty flowers all day, making sweet honey
EngineerInIran: you are at work now?
literarydiscussions: no, home... must run
EngineerInIran: haha

Sitaram · Site Admin Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 1079

StudentInIndia: Hi
literarydiscussions: hello
literarydiscussions: how goes the battle
StudentInIndia: the same...
StudentInIndia: But, I can see myself more objectively than before.

literarydiscussions: that is always progress
StudentInIndia: I was thinking about what you said, and you're right. I'm
using "spirituality" as a shield.. a place of respite.

literarydiscussions: you have been "running away." Now you must learn
how to "run towards"

StudentInIndia: ..and, that's possible only if I'm at peace with "the thing"
I'm running away from, which is the world.

StudentInIndia: Well, I keep relflecting on the Battle of Kurukshetra
everytime I face a challenge.

literarydiscussions: a good meditation: the field of dharma

StudentInIndia: yeh...Dharma.... some say it's righteousness...some say
its duty..but, then what's right for most people is not right for you...and,
then you're transgressing their boundaries, etc.

StudentInIndia: I dont have control of my mind, and I find it even harder
to control it now that I've stopped meditating....

literarydiscussions: rather than constantly thinking about your mind, why
not distract yourself with normal daily life, activities, duties,
responsibilities, and then you will find that you have no time to think about
your mind...

StudentInIndia: Is that the answer?

literarydiscussions: try to do something.... try anything.... try reading
everything sitaram ever wrote, and cut and past little passages from it,
and write your own comments.... now there is a project for you

StudentInIndia: Give me the link, again..
StudentInIndia: I'm on another comp.
literarydiscussions: http://www.literarydiscussions.myfreeforum.org
StudentInIndia: Not that one.

literarydiscussions: if you sign up for http://www.netvouz.com you will
always have your links bookmarked and available from any computer

literarydiscussions: http://www.sitaram.0catch.com
literarydiscussions: http://www.egroups.com/group/Sitaram
literarydiscussions: http://www.toosmallforsupernova.org
StudentInIndia: "If it were not for the protection of Maya, you would see
that I am all things, but that would be a very difficult vision for your soul
to endure if you were not properly prepared. But, isn't the soul always in
contact with the universe and God.... when we say evolution we are
talking about the evolution of the individual consciousness, right? We're
not talking about the evolution of the soul... the soul is unchangeable,
right?

StudentInIndia: Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is
this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep
himself unspotted from the world. < This is exactly what went wrong with
Arjuna and hence the catalyst for the Bhagavad-gita.

literarydiscussions: I tell you what.... you read through everyting.... cut
and paste all your excerpts with questions and comments, and email it to
me. I will post it for you, and try to respond to the best of my abilities.
But right now, I am writing about "Brokeback Mountain", the movie and
the story, so I cannot pause to discuss each paragraph that you come
across at the very moment you come across it. If you do the large labor
which I suggest to you, then you will have earned a big chunk of my time
to reply at length and in depth.

StudentInIndia: Okay...sure. What happened to your book?

StudentInIndia: You done with it?

StudentInIndia: ..Too Small for Supernova.

literarydiscussions: no... it is a work in progress
StudentInIndia: I see...and, what made you choose that Title?

StudentInIndia: Hey, I'll be back...I'm gonna go star-gazing and
nature-watching.

StudentInIndia: if there's a word like that...

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