literarydiscussions.myfreeforum.org

Sitaram · Site Admin Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 1079

Date: Mon May 26, 2003 2:28 pm
Subject: Is A Guru Necessary?

Someone at hindunet.com, in an old post, raised the question "Is a
Guru Necessary?"

I responded with some old posts of my own that touch on the topic of
Gurus.

http://www.geocities.com/tulsidas_ramayan/page153.htm

In What Way is Guru Bramha, Vishnu and Maheshwara? - Page 153

Todays post (below) is particularly touching for me, and certainly I
do not feel worthy of it. And yet, it makes me pause and think about
the frequently recited prayer in Hinduism "Guru Bramha, Guru Vishnu,
Guru Maheshwara", which is simply saying that your earthly Guru or
spiritual advisor is equivalent to God, to the Hindu Trinity of
Creator, Preserver, and Destroyer. Such a sentiment is very difficult
for the West to understand. We see the analog of this sentiment (very
dimly) in St. Paul's words "God places His treasures of GOLD in
vessels of CLAY." Of course, we humans are the earthen vessels, with
our individual faults, passions, addictions, handicaps, appetites and
shortcomings (the CLAY). But the GOLD that is deposited within us is
the WORD. For Western Christianity, the WORD of course is the LOGOS,
Christ, who said "I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, THE LIGHT". But in a
broader sense, a sense which encompasses Eastern Thought as well, the
WORD is those ETERNAL SPIRITUAL TRUTHS which age after age, like
birds from the heavens, come and roost in the hearts and minds of
certain individuals, certain Gurus, teachers, Prophets, who in turn
take courage and give VOICE to the WORD, at any cost, at any risk,
even if it means that they pay for the WORD with their lives. There
are those such as Buddha and Guru Nanak and Rumi and Ramana Maharshi,
who arise in every century, and Tulsidas, and Chaitanya and Vallabh,
and many many others. These are the vessels of clay which contain the
gold. The field which contains the pearl of great price is that human
heart which contains the treasure of the WORD. That great PRICE which
one pays for the field, to gain the WORD is one's life. Either one
consecrates ones life to prospecting for, uncovering, and revealing
that WORD hidden in the heart, or one sacrifices ones life in
religious persecution for having been too outspoken. Whichever price
one is deemed worthy to pay, the price is dear, and yet modest
compared to the PRICELESS treasure which is obtained.

Certainly it is true that, whoever or whatever you accept as teacher
or guide INDEED becomes God for you, because that teacher and guide
fashions and shapes your concept of who and what God is , the nature
of God's Personality, and the relationship of that Personality to you
as an individual.

Few Western Christians are aware of something in Eastern Orthdox
Christian belief and practice which closely resembles this Hindu
notion of "Guru is God". The West often chuckles at the word Swami,
which means Master, and pictures some self-seeking charlatin wearing
a turban and colored robes. And certainly there have always been many
such charlitins in the word, in every faith and culture. But the word
in Greek for Bishop is "Despoti" (yes, the same root word as Despot
or Tyrant). "Despoti" means "Master", just like Swami. The Russian
Orthodox Christians of the first millenium faithfully
translated "Despoti" to the Slavonic word "Vladika". The Russians
also address their Bishop as Vladika (Master). And in Hinduism, a "GO-
SWAMI" is "one who has mastered the senses" (Go can mean the senses,
or Go can also mean herded creatures, in which case the "Goswami" is
the Shepherd). Certainly, even Plato in his Republic has imagery
about the soul being the wild horses of the senses and appetites,
hitched to a chariot, and Nous or Mind or Reason is the Master
Charioteer, who harnesses and tames and directs their wild energies
and impulses.

When a Bishop is present in a church (even a remote rural village
church), it is quite an event. There is a special cermony in the
center of the church, prior to the beginning of the Liturgy (or
Mass). It is a religious ritual in which the Bishop is "vested" or
dressed in his vestments. Once the Bishop is vested and begins to
serve the Liturgy, he is no longer the individual "clay vessel" named
John or Peter or Ambrose or Luke (or whatever his personal name might
be). He has now become THE LIVING ICON (or Image) of Christ, and he
is treated as such for the entire service. And SINCE CHRIST is ONE
with the Trinity, the Bishop in essene IS FATHER, SON, AND HOLY
SPIRIT (or in Hindu terms, the Swami or Guru IS Bramha, Vishnu,
Maheswara). When a priest or deacon takes his Incense (Dhoop)
container (which swings on a chain) and incenses the Icon (or
picture) of Christ which is on the iconostasis at the front of the
church, he incenses it THREE TIMES. BUT, if a Biship is present, the
priest or deacon will incense the Bishop NINE TIMES, precisely
because the Bishop is the LIVING ICON OF CHRIST (whereas the painting
is not alive). And remember, the Bishop is addressed as Master or
Swami.

We must also look at Greek Orthodox Monastic tradition and practice,
which has remained unchanged for the past 2000 years. The Greek
Orthodox theological understanding is that mankind fell away from God
and Grace because of disobedience in the Garden of Eden by breaking
God's only commandment and tasting of the one fruit which was
forbidden. Therefore, in Greek Theology, the CURE for disobedience is
OBEDIENCE; surrender of the WILL in complete, unquestioning OBEDIENCE
to a MASTER (or Swami). That surrender and obedience is the soul and
essence of Greek Monastic life. The highest level of Monk is the
Elder, or Spiritual Father. This is someone whose "clay" has been
long-baked in the oven of suffereing and adversity of ascetical
renunciation(TAPAS). Symbolically, the Elder or Spiritual Father
(though he is human and has faults and weaknesses) LITERALLY BECOMES
a LIVING ICON of Christ for the disciple (Chela). So quite literally,
the Bishop is God, the Elder or Spiritual Father is God, and GURU IS
GOD.

Hinduism also teaches that a child should treat their Mother and
Father as Dieties, earthly God and Goddess. This is also a difficult
concept for the West to deal with. And yet the West addresses God as
Father. But we see how a small child naievely considers their father
and mother to be all-powerful (omnipotent, able to do anything) and
also all-knowing (omniscient).

Over the years I have spoken to many people who are "lost souls" in
search of something. Although I consider myself a "lost soul", I
recognized that some of these people were far more "lost" than I,
perhaps simply because they did not have the good fortune, the
leisure, the luxury that I had, to uncover as much of that "Pearl"
hidden in the field of the Heart. And they turned to me, in their
need, like children to a parent. And yes, a few of them, in their
simplicity, asked me if I had special powers (Siddhis), to which I
answered "No." And yes, a few times in my life, such a person has
spontaneously offered me "Guru Pooja" and worshipped me, which I
accepted in humility because it was needful FOR THEM at that moment.
Certainly I do not consider myself an equal to Shankaracharya or
Chaitanya, or Tulsidas, or Prabhupad or Gandhi (who felt plagued by
Darshan seekers).

But, there is an old saying, "Any port in a storm." Those few people
who honored me on those occasions were "lost at sea" in a storm, so
to speak, and I happened to be the only Lighthouse available at the
time (as dim of a light as I am, a match is preferable to darkness).
But sometimes, out of compassion, and in all humility, one must
consent to be a Father, a Living God, to a "child" , a "spiritual
child" who needs it at the time.

But just as no Parent who is worthy of the name would want to keep
their Child a child forever, but desires them to GROW and become a
PARENT themselves one day; so likewise, no God worthy of the name
wants to keep His Child a mortal child of clay forever, but desires
to see them grow to become God themselves. Even in the Psalms there
is a verse, "God said unto the gods, 'Ye are sons of the Most High'".

An early Bishop and Theologian of the Greek Church once said, "God
became man (Christ) so that Man might become God." That is, the
purpose of this phenomenal world is not simple to evolve
CONSCIOUSNESS (Mind , Spirit), but that Consciousness should then
evolve to be GOD-Consciousness, or Holy Spirit.

So to the degree that our own personal religion is successful or
effective in transforming our lives, our thoughts, our desires, our
hearts; to that degree we approach resemblence with, and ultimately
non-different from God. But the Light, the Radiance, the Power does
not come from the CLAY of which we are made. It is the Light,
Radiance and Power of the WORD, the precious Pearl, the Gold, which
is HIDDEN in that field, which we ultimately give up everything to
possess. The Light of that Word shines out from the cracks in the
clay, as the clay is baked and tempered in the furnace of Tapas, of
practice (whatever that practice might be).

But a large part of the price that we must pay to gain the treasure
of that field, is our own EGO, our own Individuality. There is an
ancient story in Greece about a very important Bishop, who had not
surrendered his own ego, and hence confused the honor people paid to
him as the Living Icon of Christ, with honor paid to his own unworthy
person. One day, the proud Bishop was present at a religious
procession. A very sacred Icon of Christ had been placed on the back
of a donkey, to be transported in procession to the Church. As the
donkey passed through the streets, the crowds of people bowed in
veneration to the Ikon on the donkeys back. The donkey cried , "Heee
Hawwwww". A wise priest turned to the proud Bishop and
remarked, "That foolish donkey thinks the crowds are bowing to him.
The donkey does not realize that, he is only a donkey, and that they
are venerating and worshiping that Sacred Image which the donkey
bears upon his back, beast of burden that he is." Suddenly, the proud
Bishop was both enlightened and humbled, realizing his own error of
Ego, that he MISTOOK what he symbolizes and embodies as reverence
paid to his own flawed individuality.

I repeat once again, todays post (below) is particularly touching for
me, and certainly I do not feel worthy of it. But I hope what I have
written helps to explain why I feel it is my duty to accept it, and
to be an Avatar or Embodiment of something "extra-ordinary" for these
people, who need this, at this time, in THAT place. But as I have
said several times in my website, I am simply an old parrot, who cage
has been in some interesting parlours, and I simple repeat that which
I have heard many times. I am not holy, but my Words and Thoughts are
Holy. But they merely SEEM to be my words. In reality, I am a
temporary, disposable vessel (an earthen vessel) which has been
chosen to contain and convey them. Guru Nanak and Rumi, both raised
as Muslims, proclaimed "You need no prayer mat!". And I proclaim to
you. You need no Mosque! You need no Prophet! You need no Mecca or
Jerusalem or Kashi. You need no Lingam or Ka'ba or Moorty. You are
your own Tirth, your own Sacred Site, Holy Place! You are your own
Moorty and Icon! You need only the proper MIRROR held up to you to
see your true DIVINE NATURE. And if I must be that mirror for you,
then certainly you will see me as God. But know that it is your TRUE
SELF that you see. I merely reflect it.

=============

Is Satya Sai Baba Avatar/Guru? - Page 158

http://www.geocities.com/tulsidas_ramayan/page158.htm

One reader asks: Is Sai Baba Avatar/Guru?
Mon Sep 13 12:51:23 1999

My response:

The second half of your question is simple, "Is he a Guru", the
answer is YES. Anyone who has a following is leading them (or
attracting them), and such a one is a Guru (whether he likes it or
not). In that sense of the word, even Gandhi was a Guru (and still is
now), though I do not think it was Gandhi's desire to be a Guru.

The other part of your question is impossible for me to answer. An
important question to ask yourself is: "Is Sai Baba an Avatar for
YOU." Most obviously, Sai is Avatar for many.

But consider Lord Krishna when he appeared in the arena of King
Kamsa. Each person there beheld Him differently, depending on their
own nature and bhava or mood. King Kamsa saw Lord Krishna as death
incarnate. The Sadhus saw Him as Avatar of Vishnu. His parents saw
Him as a darling child. His companions saw Him as their playmate and
friend. The Gopis saw Him as an attractive lover. But the same is
true of Jesus. The apostles saw Him as Man-God Incarnate. The
Pharisees saw him as a liar and blasphemer. His Mother saw him as her
child. The crowds at Golgatha (Calvary) during the Crucifixion saw a
convicted criminal.

There are many kinds of Avatars. Lord Krishna was the most potent
form (as was Jesus) where God becomes human, but displays His powers.

Ramana Maharshi and Meher Baba and Ramakrishna were the other type of
Avatar, where a human ascends and becomes God-Realized.

I do not know Satya Sai Baba personally, so I cannot comment on his
miracles, which I assume is what most interests you. I will only say
that a close friend of mine, who spent time around Satya Sai Baba,
told me that the volume of flowers materialized from thin air could
be measured in bushel baskets (i.e. a lot), far more that could
conceivably be conceived up sleeves or in robes.

But the greatest miracle in the world is not to change water into
wine, or make vibhuti materialize from thin air, but to conquer your
own self, master yourself, and change your own Heart. If YOU
personally can do THAT, then YOU will have become an Avatar AND Guru.

=================

http://www.geocities.com/tulsidas_ramayan/page373.htm

A Guide to Gurus - Page 373

(2-20-2001)

(One reader writes):

***I am looking for some source that compares folks like Muktananda,
Yogananda, Vivekananda, Sri Chimroy (sp?), Ram Dass' teacher (Baba
Karola Dass?) or that compares the difft. schools of yoga/Hinduism
that these folks are in...(Kriya yoga, Siddha yoga, etc.)...Any tips
of who might be able to help me find out if such a source exist would
be highly appreciated! ***

Thanks for visiting my website and writing me.

I don't know off hand of any comparison of Gurus/Ashrams that is
readily available. Perhaps one problem is that there may not be any
one person or organization with a vested interest in publishing such
a comparison. Often, people who are religious leaders may consider
other "gurus" as competition. Others who write about groups of gurus
or schools are motivated to do so because they are critical of them
ALL.

I do have one book, rather old and perhaps out of print, written by
an Indian who was either raised in Catholicism, or converted to
Catholicism. That book is "The Mystics" by Aubrey Menen, ISBN 0-8037-
6204-6. He is critical of most of the groups/Gurus. Most of the book
is an effort to subtly ridicule or expose each Guru in some way. Only
in his last chapter does he concede that there are some decent Gurus
(by which he means people of integrity, since the author seems to
object to Hinduism itself). The one example he gives of a reputable
Guru is Chinmayananda (who has now since passed away). Certainly, the
writings of Chinmayananda and his mission are valuable guides for
contemporary seekers.

I have heard negative things about the life of the late Muktananda
which I find disturbing. The New Yorker magazine ran an article about
him several years ago, exposing his sexual relations with a young
female student. While each of us is "only human", and the problem of
sexual misconduct may be found in the "clergy" of all religions, I
believe it is best to stay away from such people, and especially such
groups as Bhagwan Rashneesh (Osho), who actively encouraged bizarre
sexual activity and promiscuity amongst devotees. A "tree" is know by
its fruits. There is nothing miraculous about gluttony or sexual
excess or addictive behaviors. There IS something miraculous and
almost supernatural about anyone who can truly conquer the body and
the mind and achieve childlike innocence in the face of daily
temptations, or at very least, constrain one's desires within the
boundaries of a monogamous relationship.

The successor to Muktananda is a woman called Gurumayi, or
Chidvilananda. She has a large ashram in New York State, I believe,
and they offer retreats in which one allegedly may
receive "shaktipad" enlightenment by simply being present, without
any physical or verbal contact with Gurumayi. It sometimes occurs to
me that if it is possible to impart ENLIGHTENMENT at a distance,
without use of sound or touch, that one might eagerly choose to
enlighten the entire world in one blinding flash of initiation.

Prabhupad, the founder of ISKCON, was "clean as a whistle" morally.
Not even the fiercest of critics of the "Hare Krishna's" have ever
uncovered or published any scandal concerning Prabhupad's life. IF
you became interested in "Hare Krishna" devotion, for example, I
would say that it might be possible to find devotees and also
a "Guru" who was genuine and sound, but it is difficult to find a
GROUP or "Math" which has not had its history of disputes, scandals,
etc. And all such groups tend to be at odds with one another.

The writings of Prabhupad (Bhaktivedanta Swami), are voluminous and
very complete regarding what he teaches. Prabhupad used to tell
people who were anxious for his personal association, "My books are
BETTER than me."

What Prabuphad said about the collected writings of an individual
being "BETTER" than that individual in person is quite a true and
profound statement. That is why I personally feel that a prospective
devotee or seeker is better off choosing what interests them, and
then immersing themselves in the writings for a period of months or
years, rather than hastily seeking some personal association with an
individual that one hardly knows, and who might have the wrong self-
interests, or other shortcomings.

The collected writings of any teacher, guru or thinker are a
distillation of their thoughts at all the best moments. Were you to
spend time with the author in person, they might not have the energy
or inspiration to re-create such thoughts or teachings with you in a
personal conversation.

My own website is a good example of how someone's writings can
be "BETTER" than personal association with them. Sometimes people on
the Internet ask me to spend time in chat with them, but they do not
have any real questions or problems, but simply seek the novelty of
chatting with me directly. I point out to them that everything I have
said during the past three years of any value or merit may be found
at my 370 browser page website expressed in a far more eloquent
fashion than I might be capable of in a small private message window.

In fact, regarding Prabhupad, and his advice about the superiority of
writings, I will mention an amusing anecdote. Once, some visitors,
eager to spend personal time with Prabhupad, entered his office to
find him STUDYING HIS OWN BOOKS. This surprised them, as he was the
AUTHOR of those books, and they naturally assumed that he knew what
was in them "by heart". That was the occasion when Prabhupad looked
up from the book and said "My books are BETTER than I am".

I often browse through my own writings, and am sometimes surprised by
passages that I have forgotten, which suddenly strike me with some
fresh and new significance.

Certainly, If you were interested in Christianity, and were able to
enter a time-machine and spend a month personally with Jesus,
following Him around, you would consider yourself very blessed. Yet
stop and think, you might see him doing various things, perhaps
healing someone, or casting out a demon, or teaching some parables,
but would you TRULY UNDERSTAND, or would you perhaps be as bewildered
as His own disciples? We see that the twelve apostles spent many
months with Jesus, and yet were often confused about the meaning of
parables, or the underlying message of Jesus' life and teachings. So,
in an odd way, a person in the 21st century, who immerses himself in
reading the Bible, and the centuries of commentaries, will enjoy a
better INTELLECTUAL understanding of Christianity than the Apostles
who lived with Jesus.

Of course, all any book can give you is INTELLECTUAL understanding
and words. When it comes to actualizing various principles and values
in ones life and character, then reading is only a start. Through
reading, we may acquire a VOCABULARY and some definition of those
goals and values which we should seek, but it will only be in the
course of LIVING and PRACTICING that we will have any hope of
INTERNALIZING those words and concepts into a way of life.

There are some groups of people, for example, who take Mohandas
Gandhi as a "Guru" or even as an Avataric manifestation of sorts.
Yet, when a news reporter asked Gandhi, "What MESSAGE would you like
to give future generations?", Gandhi looked somewhat surprised and
replied "My LIFE is my message!" The wisdom of Gandhi's words is the
same as the popular Protestant Christian saying these days, "If you
want to TALK THE TALK, you gotta WALK THE WALK". Gandhi's
autobiography is a valuable reading experience.

Whichever religion or path we choose to aspire to, whether it is
Hindu or Buddhist or Christian or Muslim, we tend to idealize the
founders and teachers of such religions, and then we tend to "live"
in the fantasy world that we create about such founders, caste in the
scenery and surroundings of their respective historical periods. We
envision Buddha or Jesus in robes, with their disciples, or Muhammad
with his companions. We may even enjoy occasionally dressing as we
imagined those religious founders to dress, and eat the simple sorts
of foods that they ate, and even learn the ancient languages that
they spoke and attempt to use such languages, or at least technical
terms and phrases from those languages, as our own.

But we must face the reality that we are modern people living in the
21st century. Most of us, at least in America, depend upon very
expensive and extensive technical and professional educations to earn
our living. We are not carpenters or fishermen or tentmakers like
Apostle Paul. Our food tends to be canned and frozen and preprocessed
foods from supermarkets, rather than berries and milk that we might
have gathered in some pastoral setting. Our preferred tool for
reading and research is now a computer, Internet connection, and
search engine, rather than stone tablets, or sheepskin scrolls, or
sutras and surahs written upon palm leaves.

Certainly, "fellowship" in the Christian sense, or "sangha" and
association in the Hindu/Buddhist sense, is invaluable in helping us
make the transition from "talking the talk" to "walking the walk". It
helps enormously to spend time with others of maturity who have made
some spiritual progress and advance along a path. But the walk that
we must walk is not the dirt roads of Benares/Varanassi/Kashi, nor
the camel trade routes of Arabia, nor the narrow, winding alleys of
Jerusalem. We walk our walk in subways and airports and highways.
But, although much scenery has changed from those ancient times and
the origins of religions, obscured in the mists of antiquity, yet the
human problems which we deal with are unchanging. No matter how fast
computer chips might become, patience will always be a virtue. The
more powerful and effective weapons and missiles become, the more
essential it is to learn meekness and nonviolent methods of resolving
disputes. No matter what progress science makes in birth control,
genetics and cloning, our primordial sexual desires will always
present a profound challenge to us as a source of temptation,
misconduct and addictive behavior. No matter how many continents or
planets we conquer and colonize, we will always have to face the
emptiness and loneliness of a Universe in which we seem out-of-place
and extraneous. No matter how wise and ancient we become, medically
and genetically extending our lifespan indefinitely, there will
always remain buried somewhere deep within us a weeping child seeking
the consoling love of a heavenly parent.

Gandhi once said "My religious beliefs are a deeply personal issue
between myself and God alone." No matter what we choose to say or
share or argue or preach to others, or what they chose to say or
teach to us, or even if we choose silence, we are all ultimately
alone with our beliefs. Mother Theresa had some advice hanging on a
wall in her convent, which exhorts us on a number of matters, "to be
good anyway, even though others might judge us as wicked", "to give
our best even though others might criticize us", but the last
sentence reminds us, "You see, all along, it was never a matter
between YOU and THEM (other people), but only a matter between YOU
and GOD, anyway".

J. Krishnamurthi said it best. "The TRUTH is a PATHLESS land." You
must blaze your own path, or it shall never BE your own. No one can
do it for you, they can only point the way and give you a map. No
matter who is your teacher, they can never clone themselves in you.
You are a unique individual. There is only ONE Jesus, ONE Buddha, ONE
Krishna, ONE me, and ONE you. Each of us are unique. If there are one
billion Catholics in the world today, then there are ONE billion
different denominations of Catholic practice and belief. We may
strive to see the UNIverse as a UNI, a ONE, and even seek to uncover
some GUT or "Grand Unified Theory", but the Universe will ever remain
an infinite diversity. And each of us, in our individuality is one
facet of that diamond of diversity. That's what makes it "sparkle"
and glitter. That's what make it precious. That is why free will is
so important, and choices; to ALLOW that diversity to thrive and
manifest, but not to thrive and spread cancerously like a disease, or
as some sprawling wilderness of weeds without direction and fruit,
but in an orderly and disciplined and self-controlled dignity, as
CULTIVATED fields awaiting harvest.

I suggest that you look for a paperback book entitled "A Survey of
Hinduism" by Klaus Klostermaier (SUNY Press), 600 pages, $18. This
will give you the best overview of Hinduism. Also look for "Everyday
Zen" by Charlotte Joko Beck. Anything by Tich Nhat Hanh, such
as "Miracle of Mindfulness" or "Old Path White Clouds" will also be
very helpful. Read Huston Smith and Ninian Smart. Use your Internet
searching engines like google.com, hotbot, altavista, oingo, dogpile,
yahoo, etc., to surf the net and find sites and articles on various
aspects of Hinduism.

Since you mention Vivekanada, I will suggest that you acquire a
volume of his collected writings. Also look for one of the many books
on "The Gospel of Ramakrishna". You will also find writings about
Ramana Maharshi helpful.

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