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Sitaram · Site Admin Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 1079

Here is this morning's internet dialogue in Yahoo chat between myself and a professor of folklore in South India, posted with his permission.

I have done only minor editing.
Our dialogue explores the synergy between faith and doubt, and the cyclic nature of the spiritual pendulum between subjective/mystic/transcendent and the objective/corporate/legislative.

Mahendra: good morning Sitaram

Sitaram: Hello there, nice to see you. How is your work coming?
I hear from no one regarding the topics of your interest

Mahendra: yes it is very ambitious and need more time. Shall I send a copy of my work ?
Sitaram: I write regularly at http://www.myspace.com/literarydiscussions
Mahendra: you may post it
Mahendra: I wil see it
Mahendra: this is about Multilingual education in Orissa

Sitaram: very interesting

Sitaram: you might, at some point, compare with experiences in the Philippines

Mahendra: by now we have done two grand workshops where linguists from Canadsa and England have come and trained our tribal teachers
Sitaram: all education there is in English, yet they speak Tagalog (Pilipino)

Mahendra: it is also same here
Mahendra: but the mother tongue is their own language
Mahendra: the second language is state language and third language is English

Sitaram: What it the name of the mother tongue?

Mahendra: ten languages: they are santali, saora, munda, koya, kuvi, kui, juang, bonda, kishan , oroam

Sitaram: I read some things regarding the bhasa braj language of the Asta Chap poets, surrounding the lineage of (the name escapes me for a moment), he was contemporary of Chaitanya

Mahendra: yes it was in north India

Sitaram: in America, Krishna Das, is the lead scholar, an American convert

Mahendra: Mathura region is it?
Sitaram: yes

Mahendra: It may be braj bhasha

Sitaram: it is a household sampradaya

Mahendra: language of gopis
Mahendra: yes

Sitaram: yes, I always get confused

Sitaram: Vallabh acharya

Mahendra: Vallabha sampradaya?

Sitaram: yes

Mahendra: I was reading all these in my MA during 1984
Sitaram: I forget now exactly where they fall in the spectrum between adwaita, vasisthdwaita, dwaita

Sitaram: I am reminded of Ramakrishna, who answered, "I want to EAT sugar, I do not want to BECOME sugar

Mahendra: this is all about the concept of God

Sitaram: when he was asked concerning adwaita

Mahendra: adwaita means no two
Mahendra: only one god

Sitaram: it was from the goswami of Krishna das (from his writings), that...

Mahendra: he is neither a male or a female
Mahendra: and every one is originated from him
Mahendra: dwaita means purusha and prikriti
Mahendra: means male god and female god

Sitaram: an interesting concept that all people are just as they should be, at every given moment, working out their karma... even the Hitlers and bin Ladens

Mahendra: guna and karma
Mahendra: three gunas
Mahendra: swtwa

Sitaram: satvas

Mahendra: raja
Mahendra: tama

Sitaram: rajas
Sitaram: tamas

Mahendra: you know this

Sitaram: Prabhupad speaks at length of these in his commentary on Gita

Mahendra: yes

Mahendra: this is wisdom and knowledge on god
Mahendra: philosophy

Sitaram: he was not always called Prabhupad, previously to his last few years,... oh, I cannot remember his exact title
Sitaram: but, followers began to call him Prabhupada in the last few years

Mahendra: Bhakti Vedanta swamy Prabhupada

Sitaram: yes... that is it
Sitaram: a very interesting thing about the Vallabh lineage
Sitaram: I read that the development of their household ritual of the lilas of baby Krishna

Mahendra: Are you following this or only reading this for knowledge sake?

Sitaram: … a reaction to Islamic persecution

Mahendra: means?

Sitaram: in other words, in a state of persecution, one may worship in secret without a temple. If you need a temple and visible priesthood,... then it is difficult during persecution

Sitaram: perhaps what I read is inaccurate

Mahendra: why?

Sitaram: Well, how can I know the reality of things in India hundreds of years ago
Sitaram: I only know what I read
Sitaram: It sounds logical

Mahendra: do you feel it in your heart?
Mahendra: insight?
Mahendra: revealing
Mahendra: speculation?
Mahendra: eternal pleasure
Mahendra: release of tension
Mahendra: eureka?

Sitaram: what I mean is.... the theory about Islamic persecution being a factor in such householder worship

Sitaram: that sounds logical to me, but I cannot verify the accuracy

Mahendra: ok nothing is accurate
Mahendra: ecdept the adwaita
Mahendra: he is complete

Sitaram: well, I know that there was a civil war in USA, in 19th century.... and that slavery was a fact, and that the Romans built a coliseum

Sitaram: there are things one can know in a more factual manner

Mahendra: with realization

Sitaram: the topic of persecution, and its effects upon worship, raises some interesting things about Christianity...

Sitaram: namely... the roman and Greek emphasis on an ordained priesthood with valid lineage...

Mahendra: how it is perceived by the Christianity?

Sitaram: but.... there are TWO things which any Christian may do as a layperson
Sitaram: one, any Christian may BAPTIZE to create a new Christian

Mahendra: yes then

Sitaram: two: any two Christians may sanctify their own marriage...
Sitaram: but... this is so essential, in times of persecution
Sitaram: e.g. in Russia in 17th century... the persecution of the Old Believers
Sitaram: by the Russian orthodox reformed church and the Tsar
Sitaram: to this day, there are old believers, who cling to their ways...
Sitaram: but, the old believers split into two groups
Sitaram: the PAPOVSI, (having priests) and the BYEZ-PAPOVSI (with no priest)
Sitaram: but.... here is a great divide in all religions....

Sitaram: listen

Mahendra: yes

Sitaram: there are eastern-like, native religions,.... in which the guru or shaman CREATES HIMSELF,.... by a retreat and a vision
Sitaram: there is NO ORDINATION OR LINEAGE
Sitaram: whereas, other religions, have a laying on of hands, a consecration... an appointment

Sitaram: so the bishop or priest or pope is created by a political process

Sitaram: now, ... here is what is interesting

Mahendra: yes

Sitaram: Abraham and Mohammed BOTH retreated into solitude, and had a vision

Mahendra: it is a universal process

Sitaram: and yet, they founded religions which FORBID such a solitary, subjective experience

Mahendra: and then?

Sitaram: so... in Islam, if you say you retreated to a cave, and heard angels, you are executed as blasphemer

Sitaram: and in Christianity, if you say you went to the desert and heard God, then you are branded as fanatic and heretic

Sitaram: misguided, deluded

Mahendra: oh

Sitaram: Ninian Smart and Huston Smith are two scholars of comparative religion who speak of such matters

Mahendra: and in Hinduism if you say like this people will worship you

Mahendra: believeing that God or goddess has appeared in him

Sitaram: you see, whenever spirituality become political, and administrated by a bureaucracy...

Sitaram: then, it becomes institutionalized... and is no longer the fresh personal subjective experience of wonder
Mahendra: then religion becomes subservient to power
Mahendra: ??

Sitaram: the believer becomes indeed a FOLLOWER... who follows the political machinery

Sitaram: whether papacy or imams or rabbinical tradition

Mahendra: oh

Sitaram: now Augustine, of the 5th century, said something interesting either in Confessions or City of God

Mahendra: what

Sitaram: he said "Believe, and you have already eaten" (referring to bread and wine of communion

Sitaram: now, the ancient emphasis on the Eucharistic communion, is that it actually transforms mystically to body and blood of Christ

Sitaram: and the emphasis is on the valid ordination of the clergy, and the orthodox confession of beliefs... all affecting the genuine nature of the communion (eucharist)

Sitaram: well, Augustine’s sentence lays the foundation for the protestant reformation

Sitaram: in other words, the individual, in seclusion, simply reading bible...

Mahendra: you have a comparative vision of all religions
Mahendra: why don’t you write a book on this?

Sitaram: without aid of clergy or bureaucracy
Sitaram: I have written everything on internet, and no one cares
Sitaram: and it is all there for free
Sitaram: but, when I die, then it shall disappear
Sitaram: because no one cares
Sitaram: I had thought perhaps even one student somewhere might take an interest

Mahendra: yes the individual reading a Bible

Sitaram: every Johnson needs a Boswell, to carry on
Sitaram: so... anyway, the protestant notion is similar to the subjective experience of the mystic who becomes self proclaimed guru

Mahendra: you were speaking of a in individual reading bible alone with out beruacratic support
Mahendra: ..

Sitaram: protestant reformation recognizes the power of the individual believer to interpret scripture
Sitaram: so, you see, Christianity itself makes a great journey...

Mahendra: and reinterpretation?
Mahendra: by the individual is respected?

Sitaram: from Christ, who is like a renegade from Jewish bureaucracy of Pharisees.... who goes to desert wilderness
Sitaram: and has subjective experience as son of God
Sitaram: avatar

Mahendra: yes

Sitaram: but then, the followers evolve a politic, a bureaucracy,
Sitaram: where it is no longer visionary and subjective..

Mahendra: what happened with Buddha, Gandhi

Sitaram: but rather, legalistic and legislative and public

Mahendra: may be with Christ

Sitaram: and evolves to papacy of middle ages...
Sitaram: but then, with Luther, the reform, the protest....
Sitaram: until, now, one may feel called, and open a store front church... or a radio or television ministry

Mahendra: but

Sitaram: we see John the Baptist, and Elisha the prophet, as solitary visionaries... who return from wilderness, to preach to society

Mahendra: yes

Sitaram: so, this constant vacillation between solitary/subjective and communal/objective/legislative
Sitaram: Have I your permission to post our chat

Mahendra: why not

Sitaram: in several forums

Mahendra: it is always welcome
Sitaram: I ask, because, sometimes, someone will criticize me, that I post a conversation without permission of the other person

Sitaram: so, here is your permission in writing, within the chat itself

Mahendra: yes

Mahendra: knowledge become finer with dialogue and discussion
Sitaram: and, you are a recognized scholar in your country, so this is an important dialogue for people to consider

Mahendra: yes

Sitaram: and not simply idle speculation
Sitaram: aha.... look... the Ramayan
Sitaram: the movement from king and city... to wilderness, forest, solitude
Mahendra: I had no idea that the protestants have the freedom to reinterpret Bible
Sitaram: and then, a return to Ayodiya
Sitaram: the pendulum goes full swing in the epic

Mahendra: yes about Ramayana
Mahendra: yes amazing

Sitaram: aha... and... even the notion of God taking individual form

Mahendra: it is called Rama rajya
Sitaram: where even God is depicted as moving back and forth between universal, legislative..... and subjective/solitary

Mahendra: kingdom of Rama - nature, animal, birds, demon and human
Mahendra: May I request

Sitaram: which reflects the constant tension between the State/society, and personal liberty/individual freedom

Mahendra: you write on Ramayana , may be small, but your perception is something uncommon to Indians who mingle emotionally in Ramayana and don’t interpret
Mahendra: great Sitaram
Mahendra: what a discourse

Sitaram: yes... and think of the dialogue between the Kag Bushundi, humble crow, and the great vehicle Garuda
Sitaram: we see this as the dialectic
Sitaram: between the private/personal/subjective, and the public/legislative
Sitaram: and, the epic saga of Ramayana flows from their dialogue
Mahendra: yes
Mahendra: amazing

Sitaram: but, it is Garuda crisis of faith, seeing Ram subdued by the serpent weapons
Sitaram: and given to doubt of the supreme nature of the deity
Sitaram: and, Garuda must turn to Bushundi, and the lila/song of the epic

Mahendra: then?

Sitaram: to have his faith bolstered
Sitaram: it is our very participation in Lila, and Katah...

Mahendra: yes katha

Sitaram: which constantly weaves for us the fabric of our convictions
Sitaram: now... in the very last book of the Old Testament......

Mahendra: yes
Sitaram: almost the very last page...
Sitaram: it is written

Mahendra: what

Sitaram: "Those who fear God (respect god), CONVERSE, discourse... and God listens, and it is written in a book
Sitaram: This is said in 3rd chapter of Malachi

Sitaram: so, this dialogue, is no different than Bushundi and Garuda

Mahendra: yes it is a nice comparison and realization

Sitaram: if we consider Buddha notion of "dependent co arising"

Mahendra: but what happens if some body is nastika- non believer in God

Sitaram: and view the dependency between god and man

Mahendra: what is there in Bible for him?

Sitaram: namely.... it is BOTH TRUE that man creates god as well as god creates man

Mahendra: yes
Mahendra: that s true

Sitaram: but... this is difficult to comprehend
Sitaram: and quite similar to the quirks of quantum verses relativity
Sitaram: in the macrocosm.... motions of planets and galaxies are smooth, orderly, grand, majestic, solemn...

Mahendra: it is believed that when a man does not believe God it is also the creation of God, because God is both being and nothing( sunya)

Sitaram: but, on the quantum level, even being and non being vacillates as a vibration, a vritti

Sitaram: so, how can such chaos become the building blocks of such order

Mahendra: yes

Sitaram: and how may such grand order and regularity suffer such chaos in its very fabric

Mahendra: then?
Sitaram: this is the power of paradox

Mahendra: to be believed both the discourse?

Sitaram: we may not approach it directly... in discourse
Sitaram: we must encircle obliquely in katah

Mahendra: but like Garuda’s doubt,
Mahendra: mah has also doubt

Sitaram: in the metaphor and imagery of the lila
Sitaram: and, doubt itself is a component of conviction and strength of faith
Sitaram: Ram asks Hanuman "are you monkey or man"....

Mahendra: and you know when man fails to achieve anything face any disaster , he put all blames on fate that is god as though god and fate is not equal

Sitaram: Hanuman answers, "when I know who I am I serve you"
Sitaram: I forget exact working
Sitaram: but... the same dilemma
Sitaram: between self knowledge and self doubt
Sitaram: ohhhh ok
Sitaram: when I do not know who I am, then I serve you, and when I know who I am, then you and I are one

Mahendra: yes
Mahendra: atma paramatma
Mahendra: self and supreme being

Sitaram: exactly
Sitaram: it is the two birds in the same tree, in Upanishads
Sitaram: one eats, the other beholds

Mahendra: one is the creation and other is the creator
Mahendra: and creator is manifested in the creation

Sitaram: the beholder is the inner observer/enjoyer

Mahendra: aha

Sitaram: which gives meaning to "I am the sacrificer, and the sacrificed, the ghee, and the fire"

Mahendra: so nice feeling
Mahendra: yes

Sitaram: we may not have faith without doubt
Sitaram: faith which is not in the face of doubt looses all value, as a currency taken to a foreign land

Mahendra: yes

Sitaram: becomes merely a curiosity, a relic

Mahendra: and inspite of doubt we still believe god

Sitaram: and not a valid legal tender

Mahendra: samsaya-
Mahendra: doubt

Sitaram: yes, samsara/nibbana

Mahendra: samsaya means doubt
Mahendra: and this ends with true knowledge

Sitaram: yes.. doubt leads to knowledge

Mahendra: knowledge makes a man free from doubt

Sitaram: the final words of Buddha on his death bed..... be a lamp unto yourself

Mahendra: and knowledge possible when some body is ready to surrender

Sitaram: the rock and the flint create the spark which makes fire

Mahendra: to the total knowledge
Mahendra: yes

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