literarydiscussions.myfreeforum.org

Sitaram · Site Admin Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 1079

ai_age : I need your help

literarydiscussions: ?

ai_age : i am trying to comprehend critique of pure reason, but it is
beyond my scope
ai_age : tell me how to go about this book

literarydiscussions: yes, I remember your mentioning that

ai_age : i am not able to move forward

literarydiscussions: i can (#1) create a forum at my message board just
for you, and the topic of the Critique...ai_age : I need your help

literarydiscussions: ?

ai_age : i am trying to comprehend critique of pure reason, but it is
beyond my scope
ai_age : tell me how to go about this book

literarydiscussions: yes, I remember your mentioning that

ai_age : i am not able to move forward

literarydiscussions: i can (#1) create a forum at my message board just for you, and the topic of the Critique...
literarydiscussions: #2 I can post there all the helpful URLs i find
literarydiscussions: #3 you and I can post back and forth our questions and observations
literarydiscussions: #4 perhaps, if we are lucky... others will join that forum and contribute
literarydiscussions: #5 I can instruct you in how to use IRC chat to join the #philosophy channel at UNDERNET which is one of many irc servers

ai_age : that ll be great

literarydiscussions: and in that #philosophy.... you will find 20 - 30 people actively chatting pure philosophy 24-7

ai_age : thats great

literarydiscussions: do you know how to sign up at http://www.literarydiscussions.myfreeforum.org try to visit and sigh up right now.... and then i shall create a forum called Kant & Critique of Pure Reason

literarydiscussions: and i shall make you a moderator there
ai_age : cannot open the page
literarydiscussions: it opens here

http://literarydiscussions.zaphod.myfreeforum.org/
literarydiscussions: try that link
literarydiscussions: here is where to go to learn about the IRC chat client,
mIRC, http://mirc.org/
literarydiscussions: download and install it

ai_age : THANXZ
ai_age : i have registered as ZEN_ANI

literarydiscussions: very good... thanks... i shall now create your forum
and make you a mod of that forum

ai_age : okay

literarydiscussions: i have now created the forum : Kant's CRITIQUE OF
PURE REASON , and made you moderator

ai_age : now how to go about and use it

literarydiscussions: you will see it if you reload your browser page by
clicking at upper left on icon of the TENT picture, which says phpBB

literarydiscussions: you must click on the forum, to open it up...
literarydiscussions: then you must click on NEW TOPIC to start a new
topic
literarydiscussions: or click on an existing topic to read it and reply

ai_age : thanks a lot
literarydiscussions: go through these flash tutorial to learn every aspect of
phpbb message board use http://www.phpbb.com/support/tutorials/

literarydiscussions: right now... try and create a new topic... just as a
test... an exercise.... do not be afraid... there is nothing you can "break"...
and posts may be edited or deleted

ai_age : okay

literarydiscussions: this message board will give you a tool, to share your
work with others, by giving them a link, and asking them to visit and read

literarydiscussions: and post comments
literarydiscussions: and your forum on Kant will serve as a place to collect
together all useful links and comments, and lists of books, bibliographies

ai_age : wow!

literarydiscussions: you can also use the SEARCH function at the forum to
find all posts which mention the word KANT

literarydiscussions: HERE is one link which is returned from such a search
http://literarydiscussions.myfree.../ftopic247.php&highlight=kant

literarydiscussions: * There is no learning outcome in ideas. Kant in the
Critique of

Judgment called the goal of thinking ideas a "purposeless purpose

[Zweckmässigkeit ohne Zweck]" (55). In this sense every course in

arts and ideas is purposeless. Useless, at least in a utilitarian

sense. A course in ideas is in a way successful to the extent that

expected learning outcomes are iconoclastically deconstructed, i.e.,

insofar as they are not achieved.

literarydiscussions: As Plato said in the Meno: If you
know what you are seeking, you are already there and there is no
point to the seeking. If you don't know what you are seeking, you
might discover something, but you will never know if it was what you
were after (299-301). There is no way to judge it.
literarydiscussions: that is a passage from that link/post

literarydiscussions: i can log into #philosophy at UNDERNET, and leave it
running for 24 hours, logging all chat to a text file, and then searching for
mentions of Kant

literarydiscussions: although they seem to focus on postmodernism and
existentialism in their discussions

ai_age : the reason why i readin kant is that i believe in abstract
knowledge or rather i believe that the knowledge i have is abstract

literarydiscussions: i just now did a google search on : kant introduction
simplified critique pure reason

literarydiscussions: http://www.mindspring.com/~kantwesley/Kant/index.html
literarydiscussions: this link looks useful
literarydiscussions: http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Metaphysics-Hume-Kant-Popper-Kuhn.htm

ai_age : yeah
ai_age : i am too going with that link
ai_age : this is great
ai_age : it gives lots of information
ai_age : boss hats off
ai_age : thanxz

literarydiscussions: http://www.rimric.com/documents/tpcor-5-3.pdf
literarydiscussions: http://www.personal.kent.edu/~jwattles/kanteth.htm
literarydiscussions: http://www.uri.edu/personal/szunjic/philos/proleg.htm
literarydiscussions: http://www.hkbu.edu.hk/~ppp/srp/arts/KSHK.html

literarydiscussions: http://www.catholicity.com/encycl.../kant,philosophy_of_immanuel.html
literarydiscussions: that latest link looks very helpful as an introduction
literarydiscussions: http://www.elea.org/Kant/Geometry/
literarydiscussions: http://pratyeka.org/schopenhauer/

literarydiscussions: this is about schopenhauer, but mentions kant and
looks interesting/useful

literarydiscussions: http://www.mindspring.com/~kantwesley/Kant/RemovingHuskEssay.html

literarydiscussions: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ontological-arguments/

literarydiscussions: http://www.comnet.ca/~pballan/section2(210).htm

literarydiscussions: Kant would develop an updated form of rationalism
which: (1) emphasized the preparedness of the mind to receive
information from the world (much like Descartes); (2) rejected Humean
skepticism by attempting to reassert a modified representational theory of
perception (much like that of Locke); and (3) highlighted the limiting
effect of the old Aristotelian logic on empirical science by way of
reinserting the Socratic (though not Heraclitean) dialectic back into
philosophy.

ai_age : thats is my problem
ai_age : the book that i am reading is using big terms like ONTOLOGICAL,
Emperical, Dualism
ai_age : and i have no basic training in that

literarydiscussions: so.... create one NEW TOPIC in your forum, with the
subject ONTOLOGICAL....

literarydiscussions: another new topic EMPERICAL
literarydiscussions: ANOTHER new topic DUALISM
literarydiscussions: until you have isolated all the major terms which
bother you

literarydiscussions: and... in those threads, we will post definitions, discussions of those terms

literarydiscussions: one new topic DEFINITION OF ONTOLOGICAL

ai_age : okay

literarydiscussions: ANOTHER new topic DEFINITION OF EMPERICAL

literarydiscussions: a third new topic, DEFINITION OF DUALISM

ai_age : okay, now i am beginning to understant many things

literarydiscussions: TAKE it one term at a time

ai_age : yes

literarydiscussions: use the NEW TOPIC feature just as you would an
OUTLINE

literarydiscussions: so.. an outline starts as a skeleton framework...

literarydiscussions: once you have the SKELETON, then, you begin to see
form and structure... and you add flesh, nerves, vessels

literarydiscussions: and finally skin
literarydiscussions: a journey of 10,000 miles begins with a single step

ai_age : yeah
ai_age : i agree
literarydiscussions: there is a peculiar sort of epistemological dualism
contained in Kant's approach to the problem of knowledge. On the one
hand, the thing-in-itself is asserted to exist. Indeed it's existence logically
follows from the structure of his theory -because phenomenon is treated
as an interaction between the noumenon and the a priori contents of the
mind. But on the other hand, the implication of the theory is that it cannot
be known.

literarydiscussions: quote from latest link

literarydiscussions: According to Kant, the truth claims put forward in
support of these mutually exclusive arguments do not correspond to the
"things-in-themselves" (noumenon) and the controversies themselves
spring from an illegitimate application of the categories (and of space and
time) to the "thing-in-itself." In other words, in these two antinomies the
physical world as understood by physicists (i.e., phenomena) is
mistakenly considered as an appeal to the "thing-in-itself" (i.e., as an
appeal to an ultimately independent aspect of the mechanical necessity of
nature). Any opposition derived from these contradictory discursive
positions will therefore not be resolved and are fruitless he argues.

ai_age : all i inderstand is that either yu learn by posing question and
finding answers or by experimeting, or by assuming and than realsing

ai_age : realisin

literarydiscussions: The important point to recognize is that Kant does not
intend to provide us with a way to resolve these four antinomies but only
a means to apparently avoid them.

literarydiscussions: it is constant persistent work, effort, reading over a
period of months and years.... only such effort leads to understanding,
comprehension

literarydiscussions: there is no Kant Pill one can swallow and have instant
understanding of "kant in a nutshell"

literarydiscussions: working through this link will give you a good
overview/foundation of the broad tradition of inquiry, of which Kant is only
a part, but an important part

http://www.comnet.ca/~pballan/section2(210).htm

ai_age : wow! yes, i believe in u , as i am still learning

literarydiscussions: simply doing a careful reading of each of these links,
and posting in the forum questions, small passages or sentences which
illuminate something for you.... will lead you gradually to a deeper and
deeper understanding

literarydiscussions: but,... you must post, and then re-read, until you
internalize the little nuggets and gems that you post

literarydiscussions: so they become second nature, and you can discuss
them in your own words without referring to notes

ai_age : yeah
ai_age : i ll do this
ai_age : once in my life i ll take things to its completion instead of runnign
away

literarydiscussions: try to find friends also, who can help you to become
more comfortable with posting at and using the messageboard

literarydiscussions: and perhaps... gain skills in using mIRC so you can
chat with people at #philosophy

literarydiscussions: BUT, if you DO go to #philosophy.... you must be
VERY CAREFUL to speak only seriously about philosophy, and not joke
around... or you may get BANNED, since they can be very strict there

literarydiscussions: and whatever you do there, DO NOT mention god or
religion... since they dont like that and it can get you banned

ai_age : okay but god and phylosophy they are big questions to me?

literarydiscussions: well... once you get yourself BANNED from
#philosophy,.. then you are stuck, because there is no other resource on
net similar to #philosophy...

literarydiscussions: so.. the intelligent thing to do is to LURK there,,, with
your logging on, to record all chat...

literarydiscussions: and periodically politely mention things about Kant....
which are not about god..

literarydiscussions: and do your god talk somewhere else...

literarydiscussions: so you dont get banned

ai_age : okay

literarydiscussions: that was the hard lesson I had to learn there

literarydiscussions: they are very political there, and cliqueish.... like a
good ole boys club

literarydiscussions: so... if you are a newbie and they take a dislike to
you...

literarydiscussions: then you will be persecuted

ai_age : ok

literarydiscussions: so... be humble.... post infrequently... saying I am a
new student trying to understand kant's critique on BLAH BLAH BLAH, can
anyone help explain

ai_age : i never new that these things can happen on net too, i thoguth
thier clubs , meetings etc

literarydiscussions: and if they say nothing... then, do not pester them

literarydiscussions: they are a**holes, but brilliant a**holes
literarydiscussions: so you have to play their game
literarydiscussions: what can i tell you

literarydiscussions: the world is not a nice place, it is not a fair place
literarydiscussions: so, you have to learn to be clever and sly, and play
the game to your advantage

literarydiscussions: IF you go to the mirc.org link i gave you, download,
and learn a little about how to use it... THEN i can show you how to start
your OWN philosophy channel.... and attract people to it...

literarydiscussions: then YOU can be an a**hole too, and ban people, and
do whatever you like with your channel... (ha ha, just joking)

ai_age : wow! boss thanxz a lot

literarydiscussions: you are in India, right.... stop and think how you could
have your OWN free message board at http://www.myfreeforum.org

ai_age : yeah and hence i cannot log in to mirc.org

literarydiscussions: THEN... you can go HERE to the link i will give you,
and have your own free irc channel on #philosophy (or whatever name
you prefer)

literarydiscussions: take a look at THIS, http://www.freejavachat.com/chat.php?chan=brokeback

literarydiscussions: i created that for people who want to discuss brokeback mountain, the movie... except no one is coming there
literarydiscussions: but you can use the link there to get YOUR OWN
channel...

literarydiscussions: except... these things require learning some new skills
literarydiscussions: not rocket science... but.... takes a little study... practice
ai_age : and time

literarydiscussions: http://www.freejavachat.com/

literarydiscussions: that is where you go to get your own free chat...
literarydiscussions: then, look... you are Indian, so you can go to http://www.sulekha.com and sign up, and post in Philosophy section..

literarydiscussions: and advertise your message board and your chat
room
literarydiscussions: and maybe you can build up a following
literarydiscussions: so... you could have your own philosophy message
board,.... with forum on Kant, Radhakrishnan, Hegel, etc

literarydiscussions: throw in some Indian thinkers
literarydiscussions: and you have 0ne billion countrymen.... so you can surely find enough people to keep things active

literarydiscussions: there is an old saying "you get what you pay for"

literarydiscussions: so.. you buy a dirt cheap computer... you get bugs and headaches

literarydiscussions: you buy a premium Dell, lets say... you get quality, reliability

literarydiscussions: well... it is the same thing with the projects in life
which we undertake

literarydiscussions: if you make half hearted effort, investing little time,
you will get half hearted results, little results

literarydiscussions: if friday night comes, and you party, and spend your
money,.... your dreams will not come true for chat room, message board,
deeper understanding of kant etc

literarydiscussions: you cannot have your cake and eat it too
literarydiscussions: you cannot be brilliant with a deep understanding of
philosophy, literature, etc.... and also be big fun time party boy with lots
of sex, etc

literarydiscussions: this is common sense
literarydiscussions: you must decide on what is really important to you,
and then concentrate all your energy and time and resources on achieving
that

ai_age : yeah u are right, but i belong to those many who dont know what
to do in life, i just find that critique of pure reason is an intellectual
challenge to me, i want to accomplish it

literarydiscussions: so... then do not let a day pass by without reading it
for at least one hour... and spend a second hour reading some link on the
net

literarydiscussions: and make notes,.... cut/paste/post so you will gather
little gems....sparks of insight

ai_age : okay
ai_age : yeah i am going to this

literarydiscussions: it is important to realize that modern physics and
mathematics may had proven Kant to be fundamentally wrong about his
notion of Space and Time

literarydiscussions: but that does not mean that kant is unimportant or not
worth studying

ai_age : well thats right, but in kants sence they are right

literarydiscussions: kant was the very first person to suggest that some
stars we see are actually entire galaxies

ai_age : ok

literarydiscussions: kant said, with regard to ethics, that: We must
ALWAYS make the individual the end, and never a means to an end

literarydiscussions: when we make people a means to an end, rather than
the end in itself, then we become unethical

ai_age : explain

literarydiscussions: kant said, "two things fill me with wonder: the starry
sky i see above me, and the moral law i see within me"

literarydiscussions: look... suppose i desire wealth, fame and power... and
i see a way to use YOU as a means to my goals,... like a door mat.... and
i do not care what happens to you

literarydiscussions: versus.... suppose i see YOU as an end and a goal, to
make you a better person, and help you achieve your goals

literarydiscussions: so, if i make each person i encounter an END in
themselves, and not use them as a means to an end

ai_age : than what do u gain

literarydiscussions: then, i am ethical
literarydiscussions: virtue is its own reward

ai_age : but that is not leading to your ultimate goal
ai_age : or than you are a goal less fellow

literarydiscussions: well.... you must first master all these things... AND
THEN express your own conclusions...

ai_age : i mean objectivsm ( ayn rand) phylosophy

literarydiscussions: you must be a student first, and MASTER topics

ai_age : yeah

literarydiscussions: you want to touch your toe only, into the cold waters
of Kant, and then proclaim yourself an olympic champion swimmer

literarydiscussions: you see the problem

literarydiscussions: you make the assumption that you alreadly know
MUCH, and then you begin to argue based on what you presume is your
understanding

literarydiscussions: but, this activity becomes a BLOCK, an impediment, to
real learning

ai_age : yeah

literarydiscussions: because, for each sentence you read, instead of
understanding it.... you struggly and fight against it with your "i know
better" attitude

literarydiscussions: so.. you see, you only hurt yourself
literarydiscussions: you do not help yourself
literarydiscussions: be humble and openminded...
literarydiscussions: do not be proud, arrogant and close minded
literarydiscussions: only in this way will you learn and make true progress

ai_age : okay

ai_age : i ll , i agree with that completely

literarydiscussions: do this for yourself, do not do it for me

ai_age : yeah i ll , am still learnin, and what ever mistakes i make i am
willing to improve upon them

literarydiscussions: stop and think of those people whom we consider as
martyrs.... people willing to sacrifice their lives for the sake of others

literarydiscussions: usa is celebrating the anniversary of Dietrich
Bonhoeffer, who willingly returned to Nazi Germany, to attempt to
assassinate hitler, even though he could have remained safe in usa, and
the nazis executed him

literarydiscussions: so.... this is the extreme example of someone who
makes OTHERS his end, their well being, and counts himself as an
expendable MEANS to an end

literarydiscussions: we may look at Martin Luther King, who could have
had a different, successful, long life.... but chose instead to expose
himself to assassination, in his fight for the well being of others, counting
himself as a means to an end

literarydiscussions: but.;.. now look at someone like Saddam Hussein,
who amasses wealth, and his sons send people into the streets to bring
young girls as prisoners for pleasure,... while meanwhile, his nation is
suffering in many ways

literarydiscussions: just as one example

ai_age : but , i believe as i have seen it in me, since i dont have a goal,
so i dont have to fear people around me, instead helping people out of
thier woes is my aim now

ai_age : but thats because i dont have a aim

literarydiscussions: spend one year, now, reading critique as much as you
can, cover to cover,... and also, each day, read from google search links
on kant

literarydiscussions: and, take notes all along...
literarydiscussions: and at end of year, write a paper for yourself, what you have learned

ai_age : ok
ai_age : i ll ,i agree to you

literarydiscussions: you are young now, with less responsibilities, and you have the luxury to do such a thing

literarydiscussions: when you are older, you will have more responsibilities, less freedom, less time and energy

ai_age : how old are you

literarydiscussions: 57

ai_age : and educated from

literarydiscussions: if you go to some school, and take their courses...
they will spoon feed you, and skim over topics.... to give you the feeling
that you have learned something

ai_age : which place

literarydiscussions: aha... you see, you are already fallen into their trap

ai_age : yeah , thats what i realised in my engineering and schooling

literarydiscussions: you only respect some institution which grants a piece
of paper

literarydiscussions: but... such instutions are filled with high-chairs, with
babies strapped in, with open drooling mouths, being spoon fed...

ai_age : yeah, i am into that trap, mainly beacause i believe that good
institution give you good education

literarydiscussions: if you have real gumption, you will strike out on your
own, and study some one thing in depth

literarydiscussions: you are totally free,.... you may leave the high chair,
and take off your bib, and feed yourself

literarydiscussions: this is the tragedy of higher education

ai_age : i want goood education

literarydiscussions: so.... go through the motions to get that piece of
paper...

ai_age : education , i want to feel that i am learnt fellow

literarydiscussions: but also, work on your own

literarydiscussions: if you use each minute of each day wisely... and read
and study and write

ai_age : see thats the difference

literarydiscussions: you will not escape becoming learned

ai_age : i want to get good education
literarydiscussions: if you spend time on cell phones, and video games,...
etc and waste your time

literarydiscussions: then, you will not become learned
literarydiscussions: look at all the young people around you...

literarydiscussions: see how they waste their time

literarydiscussions: do not ruin health with tobacco and alcohol,.... do not
party all night and sleep all day..... consecrate each hour to productive
reading, writing, discussion

literarydiscussions: focus, this is the key word
literarydiscussions: focus yourself for the next 4 or five years
literarydiscussions: if you have a vacation, take a Kant vacation, and
immerse yourself on 100 pages....

literarydiscussions: and read commentaries

literarydiscussions: you cannot help but make progress little by little
literarydiscussions: it is all up to you

literarydiscussions: you are the master of your fate, the captain of your
ship

ai_age : wow!

ai_age : amasing

literarydiscussions: many people desire the SEMBLANCE and reputation of
being learned, with a few buzzwords... but they do not desire the reality
of it, because they have no appetite for the hard work and self-denial
required

ai_age : boss you are tooo good

literarydiscussions: like arnold schwartznegger said in "Pumping Iron" ---
NO PAIN, NO GAIN

literarydiscussions: keep a daily diary of how many hours you spend on
your project...

literarydiscussions: tally up each month,... see if you are increasing or
decreasing in your efforts

literarydiscussions: find ways to motivate yourself

literarydiscussions: seek out friends and sangha with people who have similar goals

literarydiscussions: Tulsidas points out that, "the speck of dust who seeks
association with the wind, is carried upwards and becomes part of a
beautiful cloud... but another speck of dust who seeks association with the
rain, is carried downward and becomes part of the mud

literarydiscussions: the friend you choose will make a difference

literarydiscussions: friends

ai_age : but my friends are not intelligent but they are sober, they are
into this materlism, have with whom i cannot talk philosophy but i like
being with them

literarydiscussions: well, what can i say.... you will be influenced by your
friends

(resume here)

literarydiscussions: the olympic competetors like icecream, and beer, and
cigarettes,....but the must abstain from them, or their career in olympics is over
ai_age : other guys who are into all this are too arrogant, u hav to really put your nore down in order to talk to them
literarydiscussions: true, arrogance is a big problem with those who have acquired a little knowledge
literarydiscussions: but that is because they consider others as A MEANS to an end, the end of their own self glorification
ai_age : why ?? they get arogance
literarydiscussions: they do not see others as an END, as someone to be educated
literarydiscussions: i see YOU as an end in itself, someone that I may possibly help, if i make myself as a MEANS to your end
ai_age : what do u mean by others an end
literarydiscussions: end goal, desired result
literarydiscussions: if i desire to boast and glorify myself, then i must step upon you, as if you are a ladder
literarydiscussions: BUT, if i desire your elevation, then i encourage you to stand upon me, and i become the ladder
ai_age : others an end, i dont understand, i think only a true teacher can have that kind of goal
ai_age : guru
literarydiscussions: the true teacher/guru seeks the greatness of the chela
literarydiscussions: chela/student
ai_age : yeah ( it is indian word)
literarydiscussions: but there are many false gurus/teachers who seek only their own prosperity, at the expense of their disciples
ai_age : yeah
ai_age : thanx , u are wonder ful, what is your name
literarydiscussions: Sitaram
ai_age : and you are from
literarydiscussions: USA
literarydiscussions: born and raised here
ai_age : here mean USA
literarydiscussions: yes,... born and raised on east coast of USA
ai_age : boss you are good
ai_age : been to india
ai_age : ever
ai_age : been to india
literarydiscussions: i have never left USA
ai_age : u speak hindi
literarydiscussions: only english,... and i taught myself some greek and russian
ai_age : thanxz a lot fr yur direction that you gave to me, i shall abide by them

literarydiscussions: #2 I can post there all the helpful URLs i find
literarydiscussions: #3 you and I can post back and forth our questions and observations
literarydiscussions: #4 perhaps, if we are lucky... others will join that forum and contribute
literarydiscussions: #5 I can instruct you in how to use IRC chat to join the #philosophy channel at UNDERNET which is one of many irc servers
ai_age : that ll be great
literarydiscussions: and in that #philosophy.... you will find 20 - 30 people actively chatting pure philosophy 24-7
ai_age : thats great
literarydiscussions: do you know how to sign up at http://www.literarydiscussions.myfreeforum.org try to visit and sigh up right now.... and then i shall create a forum called Kant & Critique of Pure Reason
literarydiscussions: and i shall make you a moderator there
ai_age : cannot open the page
literarydiscussions: it opens here http://literarydiscussions.zaphod.myfreeforum.org/
literarydiscussions: try that link
literarydiscussions: here is where to go to learn about the IRC chat client, mIRC, http://mirc.org/
literarydiscussions: download and install it
ai_age : THANXZ
ai_age : i have registered as ZEN_ANI
literarydiscussions: very good... thanks... i shall now create your forum and make you a mod of that forum
ai_age : okay
literarydiscussions: i have now created the forum : Kant's CRITIQUE OF PURE REASON , and made you moderator
ai_age : now how to go about and use it
literarydiscussions: you will see it if you reload your browser page by clicking at upper left on icon of the TENT picture, which says phpBB
literarydiscussions: you must click on the forum, to open it up...
literarydiscussions: then you must click on NEW TOPIC to start a new topic
literarydiscussions: or click on an existing topic to read it and reply
ai_age : thanks a lot
literarydiscussions: go through these flash tutorial to learn every aspect of phpbb message board use http://www.phpbb.com/support/tutorials/
literarydiscussions: right now... try and create a new topic... just as a test... an exercise.... do not be afraid... there is nothing you can "break"... and posts may be edited or deleted
ai_age : okay
literarydiscussions: this message board will give you a tool, to share your work with others, by giving them a link, and asking them to visit and read
literarydiscussions: and post comments
literarydiscussions: and your forum on Kant will serve as a place to collect together all useful links and comments, and lists of books, bibliographies
ai_age : wow!
literarydiscussions: you can also use the SEARCH function at the forum to find all posts which mention the word KANT
literarydiscussions: HERE is one link which is returned from such a search http://literarydiscussions.myfree.../ftopic247.php&highlight=kant
literarydiscussions: * There is no learning outcome in ideas. Kant in the Critique of
Judgment called the goal of thinking ideas a "purposeless purpose
[Zweckmässigkeit ohne Zweck]" (55). In this sense every course in
arts and ideas is purposeless. Useless, at least in a utilitarian
sense. A course in ideas is in a way successful to the extent that
expected learning outcomes are iconoclastically deconstructed, i.e.,
insofar as they are not achieved.
literarydiscussions: As Plato said in the Meno: If you
know what you are seeking, you are already there and there is no
point to the seeking. If you don't know what you are seeking, you
might discover something, but you will never know if it was what you
were after (299-301). There is no way to judge it.
literarydiscussions: that is a passage from that link/post
literarydiscussions: i can log into #philosophy at UNDERNET, and leave it running for 24 hours, logging all chat to a text file, and then searching for mentions of Kant
literarydiscussions: although they seem to focus on postmodernism and existentialism in their discussions
ai_age : the reason why i readin kant is that i believe in abstract knowledge or rather i believe that the knowledge i have is abstract
literarydiscussions: i just now did a google search on : kant introduction simplified critique pure reason
literarydiscussions: http://www.mindspring.com/~kantwesley/Kant/index.html
literarydiscussions: this link looks useful
literarydiscussions: http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Metaphysics-Hume-Kant-Popper-Kuhn.htm
ai_age : yeah
ai_age : i am too going with that link
ai_age : this is great
ai_age : it gives lots of information
ai_age : boss hats off
ai_age : thanxz
literarydiscussions: http://www.rimric.com/documents/tpcor-5-3.pdf
literarydiscussions: http://www.personal.kent.edu/~jwattles/kanteth.htm
literarydiscussions: http://www.uri.edu/personal/szunjic/philos/proleg.htm
literarydiscussions: http://www.hkbu.edu.hk/~ppp/srp/arts/KSHK.html
literarydiscussions: http://www.catholicity.com/encycl.../kant,philosophy_of_immanuel.html
literarydiscussions: that latest link looks very helpful as an introduction
literarydiscussions: http://www.elea.org/Kant/Geometry/
literarydiscussions: http://pratyeka.org/schopenhauer/
literarydiscussions: this is about schopenhauer, but mentions kant and looks interesting/useful
literarydiscussions: http://www.mindspring.com/~kantwesley/Kant/RemovingHuskEssay.html
literarydiscussions: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ontological-arguments/
literarydiscussions: http://www.comnet.ca/~pballan/section2(210).htm
literarydiscussions: Kant would develop an updated form of rationalism which: (1) emphasized the preparedness of the mind to receive information from the world (much like Descartes); (2) rejected Humean skepticism by attempting to reassert a modified representational theory of perception (much like that of Locke); and (3) highlighted the limiting effect of the old Aristotelian logic on empirical science by way of reinserting the Socratic (though not Heraclitean) dialectic back into philosophy.
ai_age : thats is my problem
ai_age : the book that i am reading is using big terms like ONTOLOGICAL, Emperical, Dualism
ai_age : and i have no basic training in that
literarydiscussions: so.... create one NEW TOPIC in your forum, with the subject ONTOLOGICAL....
literarydiscussions: another new topic EMPERICAL
literarydiscussions: ANOTHER new topic DUALISM
literarydiscussions: until you have isolated all the major terms which bother you
literarydiscussions: and... in those threads, we will post definitions, discussions of those terms
literarydiscussions: one new topic DEFINITION OF ONTOLOGICAL
ai_age : okay
literarydiscussions: ANOTHER new topic DEFINITION OF EMPERICAL
literarydiscussions: a third new topic, DEFINITION OF DUALISM
ai_age : okay, now i am beginning to understant many things
literarydiscussions: TAKE it one term at a time
ai_age : yes
literarydiscussions: use the NEW TOPIC feature just as you would an OUTLINE
literarydiscussions: so.. an outline starts as a skeleton framework...
literarydiscussions: once you have the SKELETON, then, you begin to see form and structure... and you add flesh, nerves, vessels
literarydiscussions: and finally skin
literarydiscussions: a journey of 10,000 miles begins with a single step
ai_age : yeah
ai_age : i agree
literarydiscussions: there is a peculiar sort of epistemological dualism contained in Kant's approach to the problem of knowledge. On the one hand, the thing-in-itself is asserted to exist. Indeed it's existence logically follows from the structure of his theory -because phenomenon is treated as an interaction between the noumenon and the a priori contents of the mind. But on the other hand, the implication of the theory is that it cannot be known.
literarydiscussions: quote from latest link
literarydiscussions: According to Kant, the truth claims put forward in support of these mutually exclusive arguments do not correspond to the "things-in-themselves" (noumenon) and the controversies themselves spring from an illegitimate application of the categories (and of space and time) to the "thing-in-itself." In other words, in these two antinomies the physical world as understood by physicists (i.e., phenomena) is mistakenly considered as an appeal to the "thing-in-itself" (i.e., as an appeal to an ultimately independent aspect of the mechanical necessity of nature). Any opposition derived from these contradictory discursive positions will therefore not be resolved and are fruitless he argues.
ai_age : all i inderstand is that either yu learn by posing question and finding answers or by experimeting, or by assuming and than realsing
ai_age : realisin
literarydiscussions: The important point to recognize is that Kant does not intend to provide us with a way to resolve these four antinomies but only a means to apparently avoid them.
literarydiscussions: it is constant persistent work, effort, reading over a period of months and years.... only such effort leads to understanding, comprehension
literarydiscussions: there is no Kant Pill one can swallow and have instant understanding of "kant in a nutshell"
literarydiscussions: working through this link will give you a good overview/foundation of the broad tradition of inquiry, of which Kant is only a part, but an important part http://www.comnet.ca/~pballan/section2(210).htm
ai_age : wow! yes, i believe in u , as i am still learning
literarydiscussions: simply doing a careful reading of each of these links, and posting in the forum questions, small passages or sentences which illuminate something for you.... will lead you gradually to a deeper and deeper understanding
literarydiscussions: but,... you must post, and then re-read, until you internalize the little nuggets and gems that you post
literarydiscussions: so they become second nature, and you can discuss them in your own words without referring to notes
ai_age : yeah
ai_age : i ll do this
ai_age : once in my life i ll take things to its completion instead of runnign away
literarydiscussions: try to find friends also, who can help you to become more comfortable with posting at and using the messageboard
literarydiscussions: and perhaps... gain skills in using mIRC so you can chat with people at #philosophy
literarydiscussions: BUT, if you DO go to #philosophy.... you must be VERY CAREFUL to speak only seriously about philosophy, and not joke around... or you may get BANNED, since they can be very strict there
literarydiscussions: and whatever you do there, DO NOT mention god or religion... since they dont like that and it can get you banned
ai_age : okay but god and phylosophy they are big questions to me?
literarydiscussions: well... once you get yourself BANNED from #philosophy,.. then you are stuck, because there is no other resource on net similar to #philosophy...
literarydiscussions: so.. the intelligent thing to do is to LURK there,,, with your logging on, to record all chat...
literarydiscussions: and periodically politely mention things about Kant.... which are not about god..
literarydiscussions: and do your god talk somewhere else...
literarydiscussions: so you dont get banned
ai_age : okay
literarydiscussions: that was the hard lesson I had to learn there
literarydiscussions: they are very political there, and cliqueish.... like a good ole boys club
literarydiscussions: so... if you are a newbie and they take a dislike to you...
literarydiscussions: then you will be persecuted
ai_age : ok
literarydiscussions: so... be humble.... post infrequently... saying I am a new student trying to understand kant's critique on BLAH BLAH BLAH, can anyone help explain
ai_age : i never new that these things can happen on net too, i thoguth thier clubs , meetings etc
literarydiscussions: and if they say nothing... then, do not pester them
literarydiscussions: they are assholes, but brilliant assholes
literarydiscussions: so you have to play their game
literarydiscussions: what can i tell you
literarydiscussions: the world is not a nice place, it is not a fair place
literarydiscussions: so, you have to learn to be clever and sly, and play the game to your advantage
literarydiscussions: IF you go to the mirc.org link i gave you, download, and learn a little about how to use it... THEN i can show you how to start your OWN philosophy channel.... and attract people to it...
literarydiscussions: then YOU can be an asshole too, and ban people, and do whatever you like with your channel... (ha ha, just joking)
ai_age : wow! boss thanxz a lot
literarydiscussions: you are in India, right.... stop and think how you could have your OWN free message board at http://www.myfreeforum.org
ai_age : yeah and hence i cannot log in to mirc.org
literarydiscussions: THEN... you can go HERE to the link i will give you, and have your own free irc channel on #philosophy (or whatever name you prefer)
literarydiscussions: take a look at THIS, http://www.freejavachat.com/chat.php?chan=brokeback
literarydiscussions: i created that for people who want to discuss brokeback mountain, the movie... except no one is coming there
literarydiscussions: but you can use the link there to get YOUR OWN channel...
literarydiscussions: except... these things require learning some new skills
literarydiscussions: not rocket science... but.... takes a little study... practice
ai_age : and time
literarydiscussions: http://www.freejavachat.com/
literarydiscussions: that is where you go to get your own free chat...
literarydiscussions: then, look... you are Indian, so you can go to http://www.sulekha.com and sign up, and post in Philosophy section..
literarydiscussions: and advertise your message board and your chat room
literarydiscussions: and maybe you can build up a following
literarydiscussions: so... you could have your own philosophy message board,.... with forum on Kant, Radhakrishnan, Hegel, etc
literarydiscussions: throw in some Indian thinkers
literarydiscussions: and you have 0ne billion countrymen.... so you can surely find enough people to keep things active
literarydiscussions: there is an old saying "you get what you pay for"
literarydiscussions: so.. you buy a dirt cheap computer... you get bugs and headaches
literarydiscussions: you buy a premium Dell, lets say... you get quality, reliability
literarydiscussions: well... it is the same thing with the projects in life which we undertake
literarydiscussions: if you make half hearted effort, investing little time, you will get half hearted results, little results
literarydiscussions: if friday night comes, and you party, and spend your money,.... your dreams will not come true for chat room, message board, deeper understanding of kant etc
literarydiscussions: you cannot have your cake and eat it too
literarydiscussions: you cannot be brilliant with a deep understanding of philosophy, literature, etc.... and also be big fun time party boy with lots of sex, etc
literarydiscussions: this is common sense
literarydiscussions: you must decide on what is really important to you, and then concentrate all your energy and time and resources on achieving that
ai_age : yeah u are right, but i belong to those many who dont know what to do in life, i just find that critique of pure reason is an intellectual challenge to me, i want to accomplish it
literarydiscussions: so... then do not let a day pass by without reading it for at least one hour... and spend a second hour reading some link on the net
literarydiscussions: and make notes,.... cut/paste/post so you will gather little gems....sparks of insight
ai_age : okay
ai_age : yeah i am going to this
literarydiscussions: it is important to realize that modern physics and mathematics may had proven Kant to be fundamentally wrong about his notion of Space and Time
literarydiscussions: but that does not mean that kant is unimportant or not worth studying
ai_age : well thats right, but in kants sence they are right
literarydiscussions: kant was the very first person to suggest that some stars we see are actually entire galaxies
ai_age : ok
literarydiscussions: kant said, with regard to ethics, that: We must ALWAYS make the individual the end, and never a means to an end
literarydiscussions: when we make people a means to an end, rather than the end in itself, then we become unethical
ai_age : explain
literarydiscussions: kant said, "two things fill me with wonder: the starry sky i see above me, and the moral law i see within me"
literarydiscussions: look... suppose i desire wealth, fame and power... and i see a way to use YOU as a means to my goals,... like a door mat.... and i do not care what happens to you
literarydiscussions: versus.... suppose i see YOU as an end and a goal, to make you a better person, and help you achieve your goals
literarydiscussions: so, if i make each person i encounter an END in themselves, and not use them as a means to an end
ai_age : than what do u gain
literarydiscussions: then, i am ethical
literarydiscussions: virtue is its own reward
ai_age : but that is not leading to your ultimate goal
ai_age : or than you are a goal less fellow
literarydiscussions: well.... you must first master all these things... AND THEN express your own conclusions...
ai_age : i mean objectivsm ( ayn rand) phylosophy
literarydiscussions: you must be a student first, and MASTER topics
ai_age : yeah
literarydiscussions: you want to touch your toe only, into the cold waters of Kant, and then proclaim yourself an olympic champion swimmer
literarydiscussions: you see the problem
literarydiscussions: you make the assumption that you alreadly know MUCH, and then you begin to argue based on what you presume is your understanding
literarydiscussions: but, this activity becomes a BLOCK, an impediment, to real learning
ai_age : yeah
literarydiscussions: because, for each sentence you read, instead of understanding it.... you struggly and fight against it with your "i know better" attitude
literarydiscussions: so.. you see, you only hurt yourself
literarydiscussions: you do not help yourself
literarydiscussions: be humble and openminded...
literarydiscussions: do not be proud, arrogant and close minded
literarydiscussions: only in this way will you learn and make true progress
ai_age : okay
ai_age : i ll , i agree with that completely
literarydiscussions: do this for yourself, do not do it for me
ai_age : yeah i ll , am still learnin, and what ever mistakes i make i am willing to improve upon them
literarydiscussions: stop and think of those people whom we consider as martyrs.... people willing to sacrifice their lives for the sake of others
literarydiscussions: usa is celebrating the anniversary of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who willingly returned to Nazi Germany, to attempt to assassinate hitler, even though he could have remained safe in usa, and the nazis executed him
literarydiscussions: so.... this is the extreme example of someone who makes OTHERS his end, their well being, and counts himself as an expendable MEANS to an end
literarydiscussions: we may look at Martin Luther King, who could have had a different, successful, long life.... but chose instead to expose himself to assassination, in his fight for the well being of others, counting himself as a means to an end
literarydiscussions: but.;.. now look at someone like Saddam Hussein, who amasses wealth, and his sons send people into the streets to bring young girls as prisoners for pleasure,... while meanwhile, his nation is suffering in many ways
literarydiscussions: just as one example
ai_age : but , i believe as i have seen it in me, since i dont have a goal, so i dont have to fear people around me, instead helping people out of thier woes is my aim now
ai_age : but thats because i dont have a aim
literarydiscussions: spend one year, now, reading critique as much as you can, cover to cover,... and also, each day, read from google search links on kant
literarydiscussions: and, take notes all along...
literarydiscussions: and at end of year, write a paper for yourself, what you have learned
ai_age : ok
ai_age : i ll ,i agree to you
literarydiscussions: you are young now, with less responsibilities, and you have the luxury to do such a thing
literarydiscussions: when you are older, you will have more responsibilities, less freedom, less time and energy
ai_age : how old are you
literarydiscussions: 57
ai_age : and educated from
literarydiscussions: if you go to some school, and take their courses... they will spoon feed you, and skim over topics.... to give you the feeling that you have learned something
ai_age : which place
literarydiscussions: aha... you see, you are already fallen into their trap
ai_age : yeah , thats what i realised in my engineering and schooling
literarydiscussions: you only respect some institution which grants a piece of paper
literarydiscussions: but... such instutions are filled with high-chairs, with babies strapped in, with open drooling mouths, being spoon fed...
ai_age : yeah, i am into that trap, mainly beacause i believe that good institution give you good education
literarydiscussions: if you have real gumption, you will strike out on your own, and study some one thing in depth
literarydiscussions: you are totally free,.... you may leave the high chair, and take off your bib, and feed yourself
literarydiscussions: this is the tragedy of higher education
ai_age : i want goood education
literarydiscussions: so.... go through the motions to get that piece of paper...
ai_age : education , i want to feel that i am learnt fellow
literarydiscussions: but also, work on your own
literarydiscussions: if you use each minute of each day wisely... and read and study and write
ai_age : see thats the difference
literarydiscussions: you will not escape becoming learned
ai_age : i want to get good education
literarydiscussions: if you spend time on cell phones, and video games,... etc and waste your time
literarydiscussions: then, you will not become learned
literarydiscussions: look at all the young people around you...
literarydiscussions: see how they waste their time
literarydiscussions: do not ruin health with tobacco and alcohol,.... do not party all night and sleep all day..... consecrate each hour to productive reading, writing, discussion
literarydiscussions: focus, this is the key word
literarydiscussions: focus yourself for the next 4 or five years
literarydiscussions: if you have a vacation, take a Kant vacation, and immerse yourself on 100 pages....
literarydiscussions: and read commentaries
literarydiscussions: you cannot help but make progress little by little
literarydiscussions: it is all up to you
literarydiscussions: you are the master of your fate, the captain of your ship
ai_age : wow!
ai_age : amasing
literarydiscussions: many people desire the SEMBLANCE and reputation of being learned, with a few buzzwords... but they do not desire the reality of it, because they have no appetite for the hard work and self-denial required
ai_age : boss you are tooo good
literarydiscussions: like arnold schwartznegger said in "Pumping Iron" --- NO PAIN, NO GAIN
literarydiscussions: keep a daily diary of how many hours you spend on your project...
literarydiscussions: tally up each month,... see if you are increasing or decreasing in your efforts
literarydiscussions: find ways to motivate yourself
literarydiscussions: seek out friends and sangha with people who have similar goals
literarydiscussions: Tulsidas points out that, "the speck of dust who seeks association with the wind, is carried upwards and becomes part of a beautiful cloud... but another speck of dust who seeks association with the rain, is carried downward and becomes part of the mud
literarydiscussions: the friend you choose will make a difference
literarydiscussions: friends
ai_age : but my friends are not intelligent but they are sober, they are into this materlism, have with whom i cannot talk philosophy but i like being with them
literarydiscussions: well, what can i say.... you will be influenced by your friends
literarydiscussions: the olympic competetors like icecream, and beer, and cigarettes,....but the must abstain from them, or their career in olympics is over
ai_age : other guys who are into all this are too arrogant, u hav to really put your nore down in order to talk to them
literarydiscussions: true, arrogance is a big problem with those who have acquired a little knowledge
literarydiscussions: but that is because they consider others as A MEANS to an end, the end of their own self glorification
ai_age : why ?? they get arogance
literarydiscussions: they do not see others as an END, as someone to be educated
literarydiscussions: i see YOU as an end in itself, someone that I may possibly help, if i make myself as a MEANS to your end
ai_age : what do u mean by others an end
literarydiscussions: end goal, desired result
literarydiscussions: if i desire to boast and glorify myself, then i must step upon you, as if you are a ladder
literarydiscussions: BUT, if i desire your elevation, then i encourage you to stand upon me, and i become the ladder
ai_age : others an end, i dont understand, i think only a true teacher can have that kind of goal
ai_age : guru
literarydiscussions: the true teacher/guru seeks the greatness of the chela
literarydiscussions: chela/student
ai_age : yeah ( it is indian word)
literarydiscussions: but there are many false gurus/teachers who seek only their own prosperity, at the expense of their disciples
ai_age : yeah
ai_age : thanx , u are wonder ful, what is your name
literarydiscussions: Sitaram
ai_age : and you are from
literarydiscussions: USA
literarydiscussions: born and raised here
ai_age : here mean USA
literarydiscussions: yes,... born and raised on east coast of USA
ai_age : boss you are good
ai_age : been to india
ai_age : ever
ai_age : been to india
literarydiscussions: i have never left USA
ai_age : u speak hindi
literarydiscussions: only english,... and i taught myself some greek and russian
ai_age : thanxz a lot fr yur direction that you gave to me, i shall abide by them

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