literarydiscussions.myfreeforum.org

Sitaram · Site Admin Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 1079

erhankayalik : hi

literarydiscussions: hello there

erhankayalik : i just arrived to the dormatry

literarydiscussions: welcome back home
erhankayalik : thanks
erhankayalik : i have to learn all of misteries of spss
literarydiscussions: a statistics program

literarydiscussions: i have heard of it... but know nothing about it
erhankayalik : entering variables you get outputs by doing necessary proccesses

erhankayalik : crostabs, frequincies

literarydiscussions: the classic box like nature of every function.... something goes in, something else comes out

erhankayalik : rigt,so rigt

erhankayalik : dear i have created a circule,a chain of thougths ,a kind of phylosophie but i dont want to tell about it in detail to people ,and of questions in this thought is(not a very serious qoustion in whole chain)about relations between people. Do you think relations are some kind of trade that is developed in folks to live together (even the question is so traditional to investigate public relations and individual it ia a good question)?

literarydiscussions: how interesting. I must think about this for a moment.

Are the relations (interactions) between people a form of TRADE (quid pro quo) which makes possible an atmosphere of peace or harmony in which society may live.

There! I have tried to put it into my own words.

Notice that QUID PRO QUO means (something performed or given or provided with the explicit hope or understanding that something else will be received or done in return)

erhankayalik : yes

literarydiscussions: This touches upon works such as Rousseau (Social Contract), Hobbes Leviathan, Locke, in a political sense
literarydiscussions: and I am reminded of Psychologist, Alfred Adler, the psychologist, and his book "What Life Could Mean for You"...
in an interpersonal sense...and, in literature, I am reminded of Silas Marner by George Eliot (Mary Evans)

We might add to all this Platos Republic, and Aristotles Politics

erhankayalik : you say there are lots of from every phylosophie in this thought ha

literarydiscussions: Life is similar to a Mathematical function.... you put something in, you expect something to come out

erhankayalik : right

literarydiscussions: in friendships, relationships, we put something in, and expect something to "come out of it"

erhankayalik : effect and reflect in physics

literarydiscussions: you might take a look at Homer's Iliad, the battlefield dialogue between Glaukos and Diomedes, in which gifts are exchanged

erhankayalik : newton

literarydiscussions: yes the 3rd law

literarydiscussions: action, equal and opposite reaction

erhankayalik : i read it

literarydiscussions: and yet, consider the laws of Thermodynamics,... which predict a gradual, inevitable HEAT DEATH,...

Namely, that the entire universe, as a system, must wind down like a clock, until all energy is equally distributed, and luke warm
at which point... nothing more can happen... no more events
Think of "exchange"..... and differences of potential energy...
Life itself feeds on "negative entropy"

erhankayalik : right and one more thing conflicts occurs cos of the unsatisfaction of saller and buyer. it is so natural

literarydiscussions: negative entropy means some very high degree of organization, like a crystal, with much energy bound up, potential energy, waiting to be released,.... then a living thing EATS IT or releases that energy in some way... entropy, on the other hand (as opposed to NEGATIVE entropy) is a high measure of disorder, disorganization, randomness...

erhankayalik : organisation collect things to postpone its death time(negative entropy)

literarydiscussions: the laws of thermodynamics predict that the entire universe shall eventually become luke warm,.... incapable of supporting more reactions, interactions, exchanges...

erhankayalik : total inputs =total outpus ha

literarydiscussions: Issac Asimov wrote a short story, science fiction, entitled "The Final Question" (or was it the final problem, final solution), about computers set to solve the problem of HEAT DEATH

erhankayalik : hiiim. i havent read it, but i think iwill

literarydiscussions: in asimov's story.... generation after generation of people , increase their technology, improve their computers....
and each generation places the same question to the new computers... to solve the problem of HEAT DEATH
but.... never is their any solution...

Finally, at the end of time, the end of history,... humans have become god like in their powers and knowledge,... and their computers have become god like

but....still no answer to the heat death problem...

and finally the universe and all life DOES end in heat death.... BUT...
literarydiscussions: those computers are now so advanced, that they exist in some other dimension, unaffected...

so.. the computers continue to work on the final problem..

and at the end of the story, they find the SOLUTION, the answer... and the story ends with the words LET THERE BE LIGHT

WHICH, of course is the first words of the Bible, Genesis, where God creates everything...

Asimov is being very clever in his story

erhankayalik : i m now looking about asimov in internet

i think there are some his books in scool's library

literarydiscussions: there is a different story.... called "THe Nine Billion Names of God"

erhankayalik : i think i have heard of it

literarydiscussions: some Tibetan monks build a computer to discover the nine billion names of God.... in the belief that the universe will end once they are all known

well... at the end of the story... the computer finishes its task... and someone looks at the night sky, and sees the stars going out, one by one

erhankayalik : in islam god have 99 names beware of 9s in lots of cultures

literarydiscussions: yes i am familiar with Islam, and the 99 names... and i think there is a notion of a 100th, unknown...

now Yann Martel, in "LIfe of Pi" writes the book in EXACTLY 100 chapters.... which has something to do with this names of god notion

erhankayalik : is it a new popular book kind cos i dont like popular cultere books

literarydiscussions: but, it is a brilliant novel... which shall become important in future generations

erhankayalik : hiimmm so i will lok it toobut iwant tosay that i dont have any problem but this products of capital lokks so made up

erhankayalik : problem with capital

literarydiscussions: think of the problems regarding SPECULATION, where the value of a stock increases beyond the actual value of the company,... and then there is a CRASH, and an economic depression

erhankayalik : right

literarydiscussions: hmmm.... let us think about the "energy" of the universe, with regard to thermodynamics, and entropy....

and let is try to find an ANALOGY, an analog, in the ENERGY, involved in interpersonal relationships, on a one to one level, in a small community, on a national level, and on a global level

is one SYSTEM in any way a mirror of the other, obeying similar laws

erhankayalik : you say think about an energy that got a higher level ond is a mirror of everything?

literarydiscussions: In Shakespeares "Midsummer nights Dream", Miranda (whose name means Wonder/Miracle) says "Oh, brave new world that has such people in it." but the reply she receives is "It is new to YOU"

erhankayalik : oooowww thats good

literarydiscussions: Aristotle said, in the beginning of the Metaphysics...."Philosophy begins in WONDER" (Miranda)

so.... part of the energy of human activity is a psychological WONDER, curiosity.... so each new generation of children,.... are like miranda,... everything is NEW to them...

Vladimir Nabokov, in "Pale Fire", wrote: "Curiosity is the highest form of insubordination."

so, curiosity, wonder.... is a fuel of sorts.... for inventions, revolutions, conquests, exploration...

but, the unrest of wonder, curiosity, leads to questioning and instability...
political instability...

a tyrranical, autocratic government seeks to extinguish wonder, questioning, curiosity.... since it is a source of disobedience, insubordination

so.... we see our world history as a great, dynamic, reaction... from the middle ages, through the renaissance,... with the rise of democratic republics,... and today, as you see the world now... with different systems and ideologies,.... communist, socialcist, theocracy, democracy... dictatorship...

we may view the history of the world as a long chemical reaction....

in which there are the "exchanges" which you mention.... (something in exchange for something else... expectations)...

expectations fulfilled,... expectations disappointed

from the time of the Russian revolution,.... communism was a 70 year experiment, spanning 3 generations,... and yet it was an economic failure...

and... religion, that "opiate of the people", could not be cured...

when the soviet union dissolved, and things were free, people came out clamoring for all kinds of religion... jews wanted to be jewish... there were even those who came to america to be Hare Krishna hindu.... and temples had to set up lessons in Russian language

there are some things which change,.... and there are other things which remain forever the same

erhankayalik : every thing you say i understand exept some words and im agree wih you

literarydiscussions: i am age 56...i have devoted many years to such readings and thoughts.... and it is like climbing a vast mountain.....

the higher you get,... the more the view changes... the more you feel you can see...

but.... you cannot easily share what you see and understand with others....

only if they also make the same journey, climb the same mountain, spend many years...

only then can they arrive at the place where you are, and see the same view...

erhankayalik : you have observations and you appresalled them in acorrect way

literarydiscussions: i do not have all the answers.... but i have some interesting questions

perhaps i have no answers

but, questions are also important

erhankayalik : questions are base of philosophy

literarydiscussions: it is when we stop questioning... that is a "heat death" of sorts

erhankayalik : hi hi right

literarydiscussions: there are forms of government which seek to repress, silence, all questioning, all curiosity...

erhankayalik : cos

literarydiscussions: there are other forms of governent which seek to encourage questioning and curiosity

erhankayalik : but i ensure you that all systems seek stability

literarydiscussions: the power of a tyranny depends upon complete surrender of the people,... to surrender their individuality, their questioning, their curiosity

true... the democracy wants to ensure its future stability

so it passes a law against plotting to overthow the government by violent means...

those who attempt this are seized and executed...
literarydiscussions: but... there is provision for changing the government, by elections, by due process of law, by amendments

erhankayalik : how much is it healty(i cant find the right word)
it si right but how much

literarydiscussions: yes... what measure of freedom is tolerable, and what measure of freedom leads to instability... it is a delicate balance

For example, the very first commandment in the Bible, in Genesis, the first thing man is explicitly told to do is "be fruitful and multiply"...

meaning.. have lots of children...populate the earth...

but, now, in China, you see the one child law, which seems cruel, but was necessary to postpone a great disaster of overpopulation...

erhankayalik : yes peole here thinks the republic
is something great,holy
but they cant understand
we gave some our power to government to they protect us and give us right conditions to live

do you know about old turcsfrom middle asia
if khan does something they wont support they pick up their thing ad leave the khan

one of my teacher described them as people that votes with their feet

literarydiscussions: well... i do not know a great deal, but as i said the other day, i admire the wisdom of kemal ataturk, to destroy some of the old ottoman ways, and attempt to modernize

a nation can no longer survive if half the population, the women, are illiterate, and second class, and unskilled, and prisoners....

as one example...

literarydiscussions: a person with the mentality of a cleric or imam or fundamentalist can never make a scientific discovery... to cure cancer or aids...

because their mind is totally bogged down with racas, and halal and haram, etc etc etc

erhankayalik : cos he says deasese comes from god

literarydiscussions: and mighty questions such as "should i wash the stones that i cast at the pillars during hajj

Salman Rushdie was totally correct when he said that reform must come for islam, and it will come from the diaspora of muslims who live scattered as minorities within a larger multicultural populace

erhankayalik : islam
and all of other religions
turan dursun says

literarydiscussions: yes, and all fundamentalist religions

erhankayalik : if they wont exist humankind hasnt got one couse to fight
but i think its
nature of people
they fell themselves to find,

literarydiscussions: i found one easy, scientific proof, to discredit the quran and islam.... and it was on a documentary on educational television... about a 10 year old child with TWO HEADS,.... two separate brains sharing one body...

now.. the Qu'ran says nothing about what to do, should one head become muslim, while the other chants hare krishna..

erhankayalik : some words i dont know here could you explain

literarydiscussions: nature has permitted one child to be born with two heads... sharing one body. The child is age 10

erhankayalik : ok

literarydiscussions: so ... obviously, whatever god , if there is a god, has permitted this childe with two heads to be born and survive.

literarydiscussions: yet, the quran makes no provision...
literarydiscussions: suppose one wants to be a catholic nun... and the other wants to be a co wife in islam
erhankayalik : hiim
erhankayalik : islam says if head choose islam other parts also will belong to islam but what about if one of this heods choose another blief
erhankayalik 's status is now "Available". (11/24/2005 11:25 AM)

erhankayalik : information about paradoxes in islam
literarydiscussions: it is only understandable when you accept that islam is the invention of the mind of mohammed.... and that the nature of "allah" could not possibly describe the nature of an actual god, if god exists
erhankayalik : we can call whatever we beliave as source of life
erhankayalik : as god
erhankayalik : i mean it can be named as god
literarydiscussions: it is not possible for one to be highly educated, and democratic, and also believe islam and quran, as a fundamentalist... the two minds are mutually exclusive
erhankayalik : right
literarydiscussions: one will become a bin laden, and the other will become a salman rushdie
erhankayalik : but people take abit from one and abit from other thus they meintenance their lives in this system
erhankayalik : this manner is called as oppotunism in sosialist termonolojy

Get your own free IRC Chat room