Each soul which suffers and writes is a prophet and scripture. -
Sitaram
Time is our enemy, we take refuge from the onslaught of time in the
temple of literature, philosophy, and imagination. - Sitaram
======
Remembrance of Things Past does not have a clear and continuous plot
line. The narrator is Marcel. He is not Proust but resembles him in
many ways. Marcel is initially ignorant - only slowly does he begin
to grasp the essence of the hidden reality.
=============================
Agape: how is their health?
Sitaram: ok... surviving, but it is difficult,... goes to doctors
several times a week, takes 15 pills a day....it is a full time job
Sitaram: full time job just to stay alive
Agape: and fr u ?
Agape: isn't it more painful watching their pain?
Sitaram: well.. for now, my health is ok... and i do what is
necessary
Agape: their relatives taking all this?
Sitaram: what choice does anyone have but to simply accept the
sorrows which life brings
Agape: i dunno why im being so inquisitive .... maybe in some way I'm
seeking solace... talking to u
Sitaram: no you are one of my best friends on net so i will share
with you
Agape: oh just one of those days ...feel like I'm at a dead end
Agape: neck deep in problems ...... my mind is blank
Sitaram: me too
Agape: yrs is a zillion times worse than mine
Sitaram: strange how when we have problems, we take courage when we
considers who have more problems (and people like Helen Keller, born
blind and deaf) or physicist Stephan Hawking in wheelchair
Agape: puts me to shame
Sitaram: not for shame, but to take courage, knowing what is possible
Sitaram: actually i have very few good long time friends like you on
Internet... so do message or email anything
Agape: I used to wake up every morning determined that in some way
some good will happen that particular day .....but now fr the past
few weeks ...... i hv difficulty stepping out of bed
Agape: i wish morning wudnt come
Sitaram: that is sometimes a symptom of depression... also irregular
sleep,... or excessive sleep (like 12 hours) and still awaking tired
Agape: i know I'm on the brink of it
Agape: keep telling myself .....NOOOOOOOO
Agape: i mustn't
Sitaram: first hundred pages of Prousts "Swanns Way" is about a
chronically ill person who lays awake all night, waiting for morning,
dreading the long hours of the night
Sitaram: Marcell Proust
Sitaram: perhaps a doctor could prescribe for you antidepressant
Agape: i went thru that phase once ....got hooked on it
Agape: never again
Agape: I'm very exhausted physically too ........ running around the
whole day ...besides minding the home front, helping friends and
relatives
Sitaram: here is url with translation of the passage from Proust
Swanns way "remembrance of things past"
Marcel Proust is considered by many to be the greatest French
novelist of the twentieth century. Not only did he recover a world
through his creative exploration of memory, but he also established a
new type of novel, in which poetic prose alternates with the
criticism of art, history, society, politics, and psychology. The
following seven weeks will be dedicated to reading as much as
possible from the two first volumes of Proust's monumental work, A la
recherche du temps perdu. Although this is mainly a literary course,
we will also focus on Proust's conception of time and memory, on his
aesthetics, and on his analyses of desire. Whenever appropriate, we
will discuss Proust's ideas within a larger philosophical context--
the thought of Henri Bergson, for instance, will enable us to
evaluate more precisely Proust's conception of time, while
Schopenhauer's aesthetics will help us to understand the value that
Proust attaches to music and to the artist's creative efforts.
<http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m2078/3_45/87210934/p2/article.jht
ml?term>=
A problem sentence in Proust's The Way by Swann's.(author Marcel
Proust)
The problem sentence is the last in the first paragraph:
"De grilles fort eloignees les unes des autres, des chiens reveilles
par nos pas solitaires faisaient alterner des aboiements comme il
m'arrive encore quelquefois d'en entendre le soir, et entre lesquels
dut venir (quand sur son emplacement on crea le jardin public de
Combray) se refugier le boulevard de la gare, car, ou que je me
trouve, des qu'ils commencent a retentir et a se repondre, je
l'apercois, avec ses tilleuls et son trottoir eclaire par la lune."
There are a number of problems posed by this sentence, some
especially difficult and some more minor or easily solved. I will
compare my solutions with those of Scott-Moncrieff, the first
translator of the book, whose Swann's Way appeared in 1922, and of
James Grieve, the second translator, whose Swann's Way was published
in Australia in 1982.
Moncrieff's version: "From gates far apart the watchdogs, awakened by
our steps in the silence, would set up an antiphonal barking, as I
still hear them bark, at times, in the evenings, and it is in their
custody (when the public gardens of Combray were constructed on its
site) that the Boulevard de la Gare must have taken refuge, for
wherever I may be, as soon as they begin their alternate challenge
and acceptance, I can see it again with all its lime-trees, and its
pavements glistening beneath the moon."
Grieve's version: "From garden-gates, set far apart from one another,
dogs which had been wakened by our untoward footsteps in the silence
began their antiphonal barking, the like of which I still hear some
evenings, and which must have become the last refuge of that avenue
leading from the station when it was abolished and converted into
Combray's public park, because, wherever I happen to be when those
alternating barks start to sound and answer each other, I always
glimpse that old street with its lime-trees and its moonlit pavement."
The main problem, as so often in Proust, is how to keep the complex
syntax of the original, with its dependent clauses, and still write a
sentence that sounds natural and pleasant in English.
1. The first part of the problem is the barking of the dogs. The
literal translation is: "dogs awoken by our solitary steps caused to
alternate barkings such as I etc." Most natural and vivid in English
would be something like "barked alternately" or "took turns barking"
or "barked back and forth" but if you want to retain the structure of
the sentence, two clauses--"such as I still hear etc." and "among
which the station boulevard etc."--both need to hang off barks or
barkings, so you have to keep the order somehow, you have to keep
barkings or barks as a noun following the verb.
Moncrieff has: "set up an antiphonal barking." Antiphonal is nice and
I was tempted by it, but it carries with it an ecclesiastical
association not in the Proust: the plainer idea of alternating is
what Proust intended. For dogs to "set up" an antiphonal barking is
also a little clumsy, although Proust's "cause to alternate" is
equally undoglike. Moncrieff's choice of the singular barking means
that he can't refer back to it later in the sentence with they but,
in order to give that they a referent, must insert material: "as I
still hear them bark, at times, in the evenings." My solution--"sent
forth alternating barks"--doesn't sound much better, especially when
read out of context (context can be very protective), but was the
only way I could see to end with the plural needed to become the
referent for they later in the sentence.
<http://sprg.ssl.berkeley.edu/~jmcd/book/revs2/swwy.html>
Swann's Way
by Marcel Proust
This book is the first of seven volumes (C. K. Scott Moncrieff's
popular translation of Du Côté de Chez Swann) of Proust
<'s"http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/proust.htm>'s
<http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/proust.htm> massive novel, A la Recherche
du Temps Perdu, whose title is usually translated as Remembrance of
Things Past. In various editions, the book
<<http://www.tempsperdu.com/>> has been divided up in a few ways,
with this is early (1956, Modern Library) edition containing the
chapters: "Overture", "Combray", "Swann in Love", and "Place-Names:
The Name". In the opening chapter is perhaps Proust's most famous
contribution to literature, his moment of tea and a madeleine
<<http://b-simon.ifrance.com/b-simon/madeleine.htm>>, the taste of
which evokes a wave of nostalgic memory. But, within the overture, he
also tells an almost disturbing tale of his obsessive attachment to
his mother's good-night kisses. Proust goes on to tell the long tale
of his childhood memories in the town of Combray (the Loire valley
town of Illiers). The descriptions are detailed and powerfully
evocative of a soft-focus childhood spring walking along the paths
and streets of this countryside town in the late 19th century. The
characters, particularly those of Marcel's ailing aunt Léonie and her
nurse and housekeeper Francoise, are brilliantly drawn and display a
remarkable depth of literary perception on the part of the author.
Just when you think you've launched into a massive meditation on
memory and on specific memories, the author changes tone with "Swann
in Love", a discourse on the intricate ways that love affects the
protagonist, and an acute description of the layers of social life in
Paris. Swann, a wealthy broker, is of a type who can move within many
layers of "society". But that society is full of rules and social
morés that easily trip one up in the pursuit of position or of love.
In a less-than-fashionable salon, he falls for Odette de Crécy, a
flighty courtesan, in a fine example of the axiom "love is blind".
Proust
<<http://www.time.com/time/magazine/1997/int/970602/abook.proust_for_d
u.html>> details the ups and downs of this affair with remarkable,
sometimes tedious, detail that reminded me of Stendhal
<<http://www.armance.com/>> (though I read his novel De l'Amour many
years ago). What Proust captures here is the array of psychological
layers that make up the personalities he describes. Some of his
writing is incredibly insightful, and thus often engrossing. Some
readers, though, may find his belaboring of detail to be tedious.
Proust <<http://gateway.library.uiuc.edu/kolbp/Proust.htm>> is, of
course, noted for the massive density of this tremendous seven-volume
novel. I, myself, felt that I read Swann's Way at least twice, with
all the sentences, paragraphs and pages I re-read in order to
decipher Proust's intricate language, with his long sentences with
seemingly infinite subordinate clauses. But, just as often, I found
myself falling in to the layered cadence of the work, coming up
hypnotized a dozen pages later. The author closes the book, leaving
the tale of Swann and Odette inconclusive, by returning to his
childhood, now walking the Champs Elysées in Paris with Francoise.
Here, Proust <<http://www.yorktaylors.free-online.co.uk/>> at last
gives the book a pattern that sets up the later volumes. Though this
childhood memory is perhaps not quite as evocative as that which
opens the book, he still ends the book in a haze of nostalgia and
with a meditation on the meaning of time for all of us. I found the
book a huge but rewarding challenge.
<http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/proust.htm>
It seems that the taste for books grows with intelligence, a little
below it but on the same stem, as every passion is accomplished by a
predilection for that which surrounds its object, which has an
affinity for it, which in its absence still speaks of it. So, the
great writers, during those hours when they are not in direct
communication with their thought, delight in the society of books.
Besides, is it not chiefly for them that they have been written; do
they not disclose to them a thousand beauties, which remain hidden to
the masses?" (Proust in Reading in Bed, selected and edited by Steven
Gilbar, 1995)
Proust suffered from asthma throughout his life. He was looked after
by his Jewish mother, to whom the writer was - neurotically -
attached. When his father died in 1903 and his mother in 1905, Proust
withdrew gradually from his high-society life. Creative writing is
lonely work, which suited him well. Proust lived until 1919 in a
soundproof flat, at the 102 Boulevard Haussmann, where he devoted
himself to writing and introspection.
Proust was financially independent and free to start on his great
novel, Remembrance of Things Past, which was influenced by the
autobiographies of Johann Wolfgang von Goethe and François
Chateaubriand. From 1910 he spent much time in his bedroom, often
sleeping in the day and working at night. "For a long time I used to
go to bed early. Sometimes, when I had put out my candle, my eyes
would close so quickly that I had not even time to say to
myself: "I'm falling asleep. And half an hour later the thought that
it was time to go to sleep would awaken me; I would make as if to put
away the book which I imagined was still in my hands, and to blow out
the light; I had gone on thinking, while I was asleep, about what I
had just been reading, but these thoughts had taken a rather peculiar
turn; it seemed to me that I myself was the immediate subject of my
book: a church, a quartet, the rivalry between François I and Charles
V."
Proust is generally considered a pioneer of the modern novel. He made
a clear distinction between man and work. The writer is a man of
intuition. "A book is the product of a different self from the one we
manifest in our habits, our social life and our vices," Proust wrote
in his answer to the French critic Sainte-Beuve, who tried to
understand writers by investigating their private life and
environment. Proust's work widely influenced authors in different
countries, among them Virginia Woolf and James Joyce. His style of
long sentences, some of which extend to several pages in length,
paved the way for Claude Simon's narrative inventions. Proust later
said that he had from the beginning a fixed structure for the whole
novel
==============
Sitaram: there is a book in paperback form, by a woman
professor/scholar comparing the Vedas and the Torah (first five books
of Old testament Jewish bible)
Sitaram: it is quite worthwhile... but does not answer your specific
question... or issues of
seeming contradiction in Vedas
Guardian: that it is a problem with our understanding
Guardian: but not a contradiction in the Vedas
Guardian: which is understandable
Guardian: that Mohammed was the kalki avatar
Guardian: and that Hindu scriptures followed Islam
Sitaram: that kalki avatar stuff is nonsense propaganda... the verse
they quote from Vedas calls him Mleccha (which is a word for
foreigner, but literally means someone who eats filthy things like
dead animal flesh)
Guardian: i have been trying to read up abt the kalki avatar
Guardian: i haven't found the mleccha part
Guardian: only abt the horse and sword
Sitaram: its all nonsense... stop and think, in Gita,... what does
Lord Krishna say: he says WHENEVER UNRIGHTEOUSNESS increases and
dharma declines then I (God) take human form and come to earth ...
Krishna does NOT say "one day God shall send you the FINAL SEAL of
the prophets to make everything right so you may live happy ever
after" NO Krishna does not speak like this
Guardian: very true
Sitaram: in fact... look a progression from Vedas to Gospels to
Qu'ran... Hindu Scriptures indicate that God may appear as an avatar
many times, whenever it is deemed necessary..... Christians say that
Jesus sent his only begotten son ONCE but then will sent god in form
of Holy Spirit to anyone personally when necessary.. but Quran says
that Allah NEVER enters world, nor even TALKS to Muhammad (remember
it is angel Gabreel only who tells Muhammad the surahs of quran)....
Sitaram: now term Avatar means literally one who comes down from
above, but Islam teaches that Allah HAS no partners and never takes a
visible form..... so to speak of Muhammad as KALKI AVATAR is shirk
(speaking of partners to Allah)
Sitaram: shirk is Arabic for that particular sin
Guardian: very true
Sitaram: and.... you see, quran FORBIDS intoxicants like wine (and
presumably anesthesia and sedatives)... and Muslims love to imitate
Muhammad in every small detail of eating, grooming, dressing, but I
am quite certain that Muhammad never took Novocain to have a tooth
fixed.... yet no Mullah or even bin Ladin would go to a dentist and
refuse Novocain, or have surgery without general anesthesia
Sitaram: quran says Allah created EVERY animal as male and female,
yet scientists now know there are 2000 organisms which are asexual,
neither male nor female,... so "miracle" of qurans scientific
knowledge is nonsense
Sitaram: you see in reality GOD is so powerful that God (not he or
she) may use anyone at anytime to speak to mankind (even me i suspect
Guardian: i only have the time on Sunday
Guardian: to do alota reading
Guardian: and stuff
Sitaram: you will profit more during life from that activity,... than
from heartbreak of partying, shallow short-term friendships,
disappointments....
Guardian: i have been trying to balance alota things
Guardian: basically am trying to find a very good girl
Sitaram: balance... yes.... good word for art of living
Sitaram: Wallace stevens poem has a line: "turquoise turbaned sambo
neat at tossing saucers, cloudy conjuring sea"
Sitaram: stevens speaks of "divine jugglery" .... fancy balancing
Guardian: but yes i have alota problems too lately
Guardian: dealing with alota friendships
Guardian: my friend is mixing up religion with his way of life and he
seems to be in a mess
Sitaram: excerpt from Proust url: discuss Proust's ideas within a
larger philosophical context--the thought of Henri Bergson, for
instance, will enable us to evaluate more precisely Proust's
conception of time, while Schopenhauer's aesthetics will help us to
understand the value that Proust attaches to music and to the
artist's creative efforts
Sitaram: time is our enemy, we take refuge from the onslaught of time
in literature, philosophy, imagination
Guardian: i was thinking
Guardian: abt it
Guardian: TIME itself
Sitaram: struggle and suffering is the building blocks of time and
memory
Guardian: true
Guardian: a friend of mine has been bugging me
Guardian: telling me he's been living on a day to day basis
Guardian: thanking god for everyday he's waking up alive
Sitaram: excerpt from url on Proust
Sitaram: A great part - perhaps the greatest - of Proust's writing is
intended to show the havoc wrought in and round us by Time; and he
succeeded amazingly not only in suggesting to the reader, but in
making him actually feel, the universal decay invincibly creeping
over everything and everybody with a kind of epic and horrible power
Guardian: and never to plan for the future and stuff
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