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Sitaram · Site Admin Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 1079

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PART 1 : What is Morality?
===========

One reader, by the name of Sean, has recently raised several excellent questions:

What is Morality? Is it a spiritual goal? How does morality relate to any
given religion? What is the "fruit" of religous life as manifested in our daily
existence?

Here is the letter:

===============================

Dear Sitaram

I have read some of your posts in the christnet newsgroups, and have
just spent about an hour on your website.

I am not a Christian, though as a layman I have come to be aware of a
great deal of it, though definitely not with your level of learning. I do
believe in a Creator, though I know very little about him via personal
experience.

In glossing over your pages on Hinduism and your discussions in chat, I
notice that there is very little discussion of morality, as in the day to day
application of one's religion, faith etc. What is the "fruit" of your religion?
Is it a spiritual goal only, or should it have some result in secular life?

I can only correspond via e-mail, I hope this is alright.

Thanks,

Sean

===============

(Sitaram's reply):

Dear Sean,

Thanks so much for writing.

When the man in the Gospels asks Jesus "What shall I do to gain Eternal
life?", Jesus replies, "Keep all the Commandments" (i.e. be moral and
ethical in your daily behavior). But when the man persists, claiming that
he has kept the commandments from his youth onward, THEN Jesus says
"IF YOU WOULD BE PERFECT, give all that you own to the poor, take up
your cross AND FOLLOW ME". Basically, we might say that Jesus was
telling the man to be unselfish or SELFLESS. When we destroy the SELF,
and become selfless or unselfish in the absolute extreme, then all
commandments become extraneous, for they are automatically obeyed,
since the fuel of ego and desire which powers unrighteousness and
inequity as been eliminated.

Hobbes, in the Leviathan, wrote, "If men were ANGELS, there would be no
need for laws or commandments or government". Commandments are
an attempt to control our egoistic appetites and desires. We are driven to
steal, covet, seduce, bear false witness and murder because we covet and
desire or, in the case of murder, because we are jealous and angry. But
such desire, jealousy and anger is FUELED by the notion of SELF.

We may remember Gandhi's words from his autobiograhy, explaining why
he rejected Christianity: "I did not want simply to escape THE
CONSEQUENCES of my sins, but rather I desired if possible to extinguish
sin itself at its very source" (paraphrased).

Let us consider the very famous case of King David, who lusts after his
best friend Uriah's only wife, Bathsheba. Stop and consider that David
committed NOTHING IMMORAL on the surface of things. As King, it was his
prerogative to send Uriah to the front lines of a battle (though knowing
full well that Uriah would perish), and once Bathsheba was a widow, David
was perfectly in his rights to marry her. From a purely legalistic
viewpoint, David was not "immoral", and yet David SINNED, because his
"heart was not right", and out of the evil of the imaginings of David's
heart, he conspired to subvert law and morality and duty in a scheme to
legally satisfy his base egocentric desires for pleasure and forbidden fruit.
We are reminded here of the statment in Genesis (and elsewhere in the
Bible), that it is the IMAGINATION of man which is wicked beyond all
things.

see Wicked Imagination & The Knower of Hearts

http://www.zen-forum.com/a16/b2001/c02/d2/e94/z7

see Do not lean on THESE doors! - Page 268
http://www.sitaram.0catch.com/page268.htm

see The Euthyphro Problem - Page 401
http://www.sitaram.0catch.com/page401.htm

see Einstein's Physics Gap vs. Hume's Ethics Gap - Page 404

http://www.sitaram.0catch.com/page404.htm

also see:

http://www.socinian.org/Ethics.html

http://www.logan.com/afi/dec98.html )

==============================================================

Dear Sean:

I am sending you the URLs to various pages at my website which touch on
the topic of morality and ethics. Here are some excerpts from those
pages.

==============================================================

First, here is a post in response to the question "What does religion have
to offer?"

What does Religion have to offer?

Religious faith offers each person, young or old, these four things:

1. Hope, Peace, Purpose and Identity;

2. Hope for the future (Eternity),

3. Peace in each present moment,

4. Purpose for one's earthly life and existence, Personal Identity,
Individuality and Uniqueness in face of the question "Who am I?".

Without religious faith in a higher power or dharma underlying existence,
then each person is nothing, in the sense that at the moment of death
they cease to exist, there is no ultimate consequence for any action or
thought, we have come into being accidentally, our individual existence
has no purpose or meaning, and had never come into being in our
individual consciousness, it would ultimately make no difference since we
are of no inherent value even to ourselves.

see Our Virtues Can Get Us Into Trouble, - Page 102
http://www.sitaram.0catch.com/page102.htm

see Anatomy of Sin - Page 399
http://www.sitaram.0catch.com/page399.htm

see Religion and Sexuality - Page 11
http://www.sitaram.0catch.com/page011.htm

see Religion and Homosexuality - Page 389
http://www.sitaram.0catch.com/page389.htm

see Teenage Girl Questions Sexual Morality - Page 293
http://www.sitaram.0catch.com/page293.htm

see Evolution & Ethics
http://www.sulekha.com/philosophy/messages/36616.html

see Vegetarians & ATTACK OF THE UBER-RACHNID - Page 382

http://www.sitaram.0catch.com/page382.htm

=====

One reader replies

http://www.sulekha.com/philosophy/messages/36616.html

Dear Sitaram:

Parts of your thesis are along the lines of Peter Singer.1) There is no such
construct as Ethics in evolution. It is amoral. Creatures do what they
have to survive. Society, which benefits individual survival was formed
and rules constructed for the game, just as stags in heat constructed
(unconsciously) rules of engagement, which by trial and error and blind
chance and necessity lead to an evolutionary stable strategy.2) From the
philosophical point of view, I recommend Bernard Williams book Ethics
and the limits of Philosophy.3) Even on artificially constructed the premise
of eating us is philosophically wrong. We are sentient beings with speech
and a sense of the future and past. We have anticipatory expectations of
death and the pursuit of happiness. We have dreams and hopes. The
Uberachnid may have more advanced science technology, which they
have personally conceived, planned and used to manufacture miraculous
gadgets, but the analogy is what the Europeans did to the Tasmanians,
Africans and American Indians, which we condemn now. Appetites for
power, wealth, sex or food cannot be justified ethically in all cases and
need no philosophical analysis evolutionarily.Evolution emphasizes
survival and reproduction at all costs yet is responsible for evolving a
brain which is focused on a sense of justice. This led to god and religion
but also to ego. Is it possible for an intelligent person to be consistently
honest? If survival is all important, what is the role of integrity and
principle?

Is the American Indian way better or the African-American way? Am I
unnecessarily agonizing over Hamlet's dilemma? Was Karna, the hero of
Mahabharata or was it Yudhishthir or Arjuna? Was Antigone right or
Kreon? Did Tennyson say it all in Ulysses or The Lotus Eaters? Which
group is right, Steven Weinberg and Sartre, Mother Teresa and Gandhi, or
J .Paul Getty and Mick Jagger? Is it better to fight and run away and live
to fight another day or behave like Ajax defying Jupiter? Does it always
make sense to draw a Lakshmanrekha, for oneself and others not to
transgress? If even the synapses, which constitute hardware show
plasticity, are rigid principles and behavior contrary to survival, laudable
or to be shunned. Did Socrates die in vain?

Where is the representation of ethics and morality in the brain? What is
the basis of consciousness? What is the nature of qualia? How did life and
the universe begin? How does one understand or explain quantum
paradoxes? What is the nature of causality?

===========================
PART 2 : Moral In A World Without Absolutes
===========================

Sean replies:

****To me, moral relativism is to be avoided, there must be absolutes. ****

Sitaram says: Aha, but (HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION) could you personally
be moral in a world in which there ARE NO ABSOLUTES? And what would
be your MOTIVE for being moral (remaining moral) in such a world of no
absolutes? This is a most interesting question.

Sitaram says: Hmm..Does Sean Have Hidden Agenda?

http://www.sulekha.com/chpost.asp...ilosophy&show=0&cid=38975

****To me, moral relativism is to be avoided, there must be
absolutes. ****

=======================

Sean replies:

So, are you saying that it is your opinion that this world is without
absolute morality?

There would be no motive to behaving morally if there weren't absolutes.
Indeed, there would be little point to our existence without the existence
of absolutes. Without absolutes, there is no God to set them. Without God,
there is no purpose to us, we are merely an unfortunate (because of our
self-awareness) animal doomed to die.

Sitaram, I must say two things to you, and please do not take offense:

1) Please refrain from using any form of Christian apologetics or Bible
references, I am unsure why you are using them, though I do understand
it was previously your religion. I am curious about your Hinduism and its
practicality. Try to phrase responses purely through its tenets and
writings. I am looking for AUTHORITY, not generalized philosophy.

2) As a teacher, you must learn succintness. You have given me more
homework than I am willing to do.

__________________

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PART 3 : DISPOSABLE SOLES AND ANYTHING GOES
=================

Dear Sean,

It is now at 5:45am and I am thinking about our correspondence....

In one of your emails, you responded (paraphrasing from memory),
"yes... it does seem at your website that 'anything goes'...." (i.e. that I do
not stress morality)....

Thinking about the phrase 'anything goes', I am reminded about a news
item this past year about fundamentalist Protestant groups who have a
program for teens, to reduce the incidence of teenage premarital sexual
activity... the news item showed inner-city teenagers dressed in white,
walking up to the alter or minister, offering (or receiving a flower... I
forget) and making a solemn pledge to abstain from sexual activity until
marriage...

This news article went on to say that, for a large percentage of the
teenagers making these vows, their sexual activity was delayed by as
much as a year and a half, but ultimately, they broke their vows and
became sexually active before marriage....

The one negative result of this program of vows was that, when those
teenagers finally DID become sexually active, a much smaller number of
them were prepared with birth control protection (since they assumed that
they WOULD NOT engage in sex because of their vow... so when sex DID
happen, they were unprepared) , and as a result, a higher percentage of
vowing teenagers became pregnant, versus teens who did not participate
in such ceremonies or vows....

The point that I am trying to make is that ANYTHING DOES GO (or go on
if you will), quite literally, within those Abrahamic religions which espouse
or profess an absolute morality.....

There are priests and ministers who are sexually immoral... there are
Muslims who drink alcohol......

My point is, people are going to do whatever it is that they are going to
do, sooner or later, whether or not I stand there and wag my finger at
them moralizing about Ten Commandments, the wages of sin, and eternal
punishment.....

Also the point I made in a previous email, that Abrahamic cultures and
societies do not seem to be any better over the course of history than
Buddhist or Hindu societies and cultures...

So given the fact of human nature that "anything goes," regardless of
whether society preaches moral relativism or moral absolutism, therefore
I feel that the manner in which I discuss things at my website is far more
honest and realistic, namely, that souls will work out these behaviors
during the course of their lives, and from rebirth to rebirth. Furthermore,
the scenario which I present, of everything and everyone and every
experience having its purpose, and of all souls ultimately being perfected
and saved, is far more reasonable and efficient and reflective of a
genuinely compassion Creator, in contrast to the senselessness of eternal
torment and punishment with absolutely no hope of reform, and only one
brief human life in which to "pass or fail" the test.....

Recycling, whether it be of bottles, paper or souls, is more sensible and
environmentally sound that making everything DISPOSABLE, use one and
throw it away... even in PHYSICS, the CONSERVATION of matter/energy
is ESSENTIAL, FUNDAMENTAL (i.e. nothing is ever LOST).....

I am thinking right now about my webpage "How good does one have to
be?" Rabbi Harold Kushner discusses the verse "therefore be thou
PERFECT before me (Tamim)". Kushner proposes his own understanding
that God did not expect Abraham to be PERFECT, but rather to be true to
himself, so that when he did periodically "fall down", he would always pick
himself up, dust himself off, and try harder, remaining "true to himself" (I
am dredging this up from my memory, so it may be inaccurate).... and
then Kushner mentions Mother Theresa's words (I think)... where she
says , "We are not here to be SUCCESSFUL, but to be FAITHFUL"...

And consider the parable of the prodigal son, raised (presumably) in a
society of ABSOLUTE morals, who takes his "inheritance," and goes to a
foreign land (where they raise PIGS!), and squanders everything. Yet, it is
only when the prodigal son hits ROCK BOTTOM, that the realization also
hits him "Hey, I would be better as a hired hand in my father's house,
than working for this cruel master slopping pigs"...

The points I am making is that, even in societies of MORAL ABSOLUTISM,
boys will be boys, and people still sin and break commandments, and
FURTHERMORE, it is somehow the experience of sinning and then
repenting (a learning process), that makes Sauls into Pauls, makes King
David write the beautiful Psalms, and makes thieves on the cross cry out
"Remember me, O Lord, in Thy kingdom"......

Well, now it is 6:10am ... so I shall post this

Best regards,

Sitaram

================
PART 4 : INELUCTIBLE KARMIC PROCESS
=======================

I have read your most recent response,.... and I am getting a better
feeling for what you are looking for....

this has been most enjoyable... writing about these things.... I will say I
am a bit tired.... but it is what I enjoy doing....

being a bit tired now... this is going to be sort of stream-of-consciousness
off the top of my head.....

I do know that somewhere in my website (cant find it right now).... I
make some statements about Hinduism which are pertinent to your
question.... I say that people like Gandhi and Mother Theresa are as
"addicted" and irresistibly drawn to non-violence and charity as drug
addicts and prostitutes are drawn to their activities.... and that
furthermore... there is some purpose for what each person is doing
(prostitute or Mother Theresa), i.e. they are working out karma (their
karma is ripening)....

hmmm.... im groping for words to express my emerging thoughts....
Western Abrahamic religions "speak from Authority" as you say, with
non-relativistic Absolutes in Morality.... (Thou shalt do this and thou shalt
not do that.... or else)....

whereas, in Hinduism/Buddhism/Jainism et.al ..... it is all a PROCESS, i.e.
karmically the rewards and punishments are all built into the "physics" of
the thoughts, words and deeds.... but furthermore.... the whole process of
countless rebirths is an unavoidable process of purification... in each
lifetime (rebirth), we are working out the knots and wrinkles so to speak,
sometimes as a thief, sometimes as a holy renunciate... but the sum total
of these rebirths, of this karmic pinball machine, ultimately leads to
Moksha, Liberation, Salvation, re-union with the Divinity, no more
rebirth.... and furthermore,.... ultimately all souls are "saved". This does
NOT mean that Hindu/Buddhist Karma is moral relativism.... it simply
means that things are not as simple or cut-and-dry as not eating pork,
tithing, circumcision, praying 5 times per day, baptism, or going on Hajj
pilgrimage, not farting in the Mosque, etc etc etc.....

You must admit too, that eastern Karma takes into account things like
lions, tigers, bears, pigs, cockroaches (i.e. all other lifeforms)... whereas
in Abrahamic religions, the animals seem to be extraneous, except for
sacrificial animals, and food, and they pass away or disappear with the
Resurrection and Judgment....

In a sense, this karmic "process" which I am describing is very
scientific.... when compared to all the circumcision/baptism mumbo-jumbo
of Abrahamic religions, which seems rather arbitrary, and leaves out
people like the Australian aborigines who never got to meet a priest or an
imam or a rabbi until the 19th century.....

of course... when you look at the entire history of the Hindu/Buddhist/Jain
peoples, they seem far more humble and gentle than the history of Islam
and Christianity, with slavery, wars of colonial aggression, genocides,
crusades, inquisitions, witch burnings, religious persecutions.... When one
looks at the history of Abrahamic peoples, in comparison to Hindus and
Buddhists, it would seem that your ABSOLUTES and your Authority and
your non-relative Morality are a huge failure...

different but related thought....

look at the "sinfulness" of Saul before he became St. Paul.... (Saul was
present and partly responsible for the murder of very first Christian
martyr, St. Stephan, a deacon)....

Saul/Paul's conversion has uncanny parallels with Valmiki, who was a thief
and murderer, but repented and went on to write the Ramayan (which is
sort of the Hindu version of the Gospels, except that Ram is the
incarnation, not Jesus)...

And it was King David's repentance over Uriah's murder which produced
the 51st Psalm...(Have mercy on me, according to thy great mercy....).....
I know you are going to be angry with me for mentioning the Bible.... but
if you notice in my website... its what i do,... its my "thing".... its how my
mind works.... so I hope you can be patient with me....

I am trying to point out that both in Hinduism and in Christianity,
sometimes hitting rock bottom (Immorality) can lead to repentance...
which may then produce morality, and even a Saint.....

I am rambling a bit here....

I do sense a Christian hidden in you, trying to come out..... there is
something which is slightly bothering you about Christianity, so you are
looking around to "convince" yourself that other things (like Hinduism) are
really inferior..... (this is just my "take" on what is going on with you... I
could be wrong, but I am being honest).... and all this is OK.... but I will
say that you are approaching this inquiry not totally open minded, but with
some preconceived notions, or prejudices if you will....

of course... it make no difference to me personally what you become.... I
mean, I have no vested interest in converting anyone to anything.....

Well,... I am quite tired now.... I really want to say much more.... I am
trying to put my thoughts together in some articulate form.... but we may
continue our dialogues as long as you like....

As my own thoughts crystallize and take shape.... I shall try to provide
you with the formal statements which you desire.... but you must be
patient.... for this is the way my mind works....

Best regards,

Sitaram
==========

PART 5 : We Have Covered a Lot of Ground

===========

http://www.sulekha.com/chpost.asp...ilosophy&show=0&cid=38985

(Sean writes)

Asterisks (***) highlights Sitaram's previous post comments

***hmmm.... im groping for words to express my emerging thoughts.... Western
***Abrahamic religions "speak from Authority" as you say, with non-relativistic
***Absolutes in Morality.... (Thou shalt do this and thou shalt not do that....
***or else)....

Sean writes: I am sorry, I didn't quite mean it like that. One of my most
basic problems is that personal sincerity of belief does not make that
belief TRUE. Therefore, righteous individuals include Mother Theresa, the
Pope, abortionist killers, the pilots of the jets flying the planes that went
into your twin towers, etc. Which ones are following their religions
correctly? All of them. Which ones are purveyors of the REAL God? I don't
know. Actually, maybe you have a point here, maybe it is "authoritarian"
religions that cause all the problems. But what if one of them has the
REAL authority?

***Moksha, Liberation, Salvation, re-union with the Divinity, no more
***rebirth.... and furthermore,.... ultimately all souls are "saved". This
***does NOT mean that Hindu/Buddhist Karma is moral relativism.... it simply
***means that things are not as simple or cut-and-dry as not eating pork,
***tithing, circumcision, praying 5 times per day, baptism, or going on Hajj
***pilgrimage, not farting in the Mosque, etc etc etc.....

Sean writes: Is this what drove you from your Christianity? The whole
reason I am asking you these questions is because you came from a
Christian background, but obviously felt compelled to do something else.

***You must admit too, that eastern Karma takes into account things like
lions,
***tigers, bears, pigs, cockroaches (i.e. all other lifeforms)... whereas in
***Abrahamic religions, the animals seem to be extraneous, except for
***sacrificial animals, and food, and they pass away or disappear with the
***Resurrection and Judgment....

Sean writes: This brings up a whole other issue which I don't really want
to delve into extensively. Human overpopulation is a major problem,
though it is not officially recognized as such yet. India is one of the world's
most populous nations and is the home of Hinduism. Does it not make
sense to limit our growth to protect the animals around us? I think that the
world population should actually be around 100 million maximum. That
way we can live comfortably without fear of nature being unable to
support us.

***In a sense, this karmic "process" which I am describing is very
***scientific.... when compared to all the circumcision/baptism mumbo-jumbo of
***Abrahamic religions, which seems rather arbitrary, and leaves out people like
***the Australian aborigines who never got to meet a priest or an imam or a
***rabbi until the 19th century.....

Sean writes: True, but your karmic process has no apparent divine
revelation to indicate its supernal truth. Of course, just because a book
says that God came and revealed himself to man doesn't mean that it is
true either.

***of course... when you look at the entire history of the Hindu/Buddhist/Jain
***peoples, they seem far more humble and gentle than the history of Islam and
***Christianity, with slavery, wars of colonial aggression, genocides, crusades,
***inquisitions, witch burnings, religious persecutions.... When one looks
***at the history of Abrahamic peoples, in comparison to Hindus and Buddhists,
***it would seem that your ABSOLUTES and your Authority and your non-relative
***Morality are a huge failure...

Sean writes: I don't know if the difference is so much in the absolutes or
even in the authority, but in the mandate of God. If people are told by
God to spread the word, people are going to fight. Besides, India has not
had a peaceful history, merely a non-expansionist history, much like
China.

***Saul/Paul's conversion has uncanny parallels with Valmiki, who was a thief
***and murderer, but repented and went on to write the Ramayan (which is sort of
***the Hindu version of the Gospels, except that Ram is the incarnation, not Jesus)...

***
***And it was King David's repentance over Uriah's murder which produced the
***51st Psalm...(Have mercy on me, according to thy great mercy....)..... I
***know you are going to be angry with me for mentioning the Bible.... but if
***you notice in my website... its what i do,... its my "thing".... its how my
***mind works.... so I hope you can be patient with me....

Sean writes: My only problem with you using the Bible for illustrations is
that it makes it very unclear as to what you do believe. It does not make
me angry at all, just confused.

***I am trying to point out that both in Hinduism and in Christianity, sometimes
***hitting rock bottom (Immorality) can lead to repentance... which may then
***produce morality, and even a Saint.....

Sean writes: Yes, this is a common theme. A man does not truly know his
sinful nature until he is forced to confront it. Like I said previously, I
believe that the Bible does describe us quite well.

***I do sense a Christian hidden in you, trying to come out..... there is

Sean writes: Looking for birth perhaps.... Nah. I want God to come and
get me, so that I can know, not just believe. I do not want to go to my
deathbed knowing that what I believe could inherently be wrong.

***something which is slightly bothering you about Christianity, so you are
***looking around to "convince" yourself that other things (like Hinduism) are
***really inferior..... (this is just my "take" on what is going on with you...
***I could be wrong, but I am being honest).... and all this is OK.... but I
***will say that you are approaching this inquiry not totally open minded, but
***with some preconceived notions, or prejudices if you will....

Sean writes: Not quite correct, I really just want truth in God. Everybody
has their own story, and I am truly tired of it. I have been seeking after
this consciously and unconsciously since I was 4 years old. The deeper I
get, the less clear it all is.

My "closed" mind is due to the fact that I have percieved Christianity to
work well when adhered to. It has nothing to do with any special spiritual
awareness on my part. It does seem to me that a supernal authority
would be superior to concepts in Hinduism, but only because I DO want
there to be an arbiter, a final judgement. Again I am faced with the futility
of "seeking my own way", because it is inherently fallible.

What I really want is for Michael Landon (i.e. an angel) to come and tell
me the truth.

BTW, I really do appreciate your efforts in this. Please get some rest.

==============
PART 6 : A GURU FOR SEAN:
==============

Crispin: Sean says he is confused, and he is asking for a Guru ( though
he writes a specific name - Michael Landon) to show him the truth/path

Sitaram: Ha ha.... Michael Landon was in a movie.... which I did not see,
but in the movie Michael Landon is an angel or something... Sean is
making a joke

Crispin: yeah - exactly...... but he DESIRES that,..... he wants an angel (
which I would call a Siddha ) to show him the path....thats interesting to
me. ........

Crispin: I have heard that it is said that in the Upanishads that a blind
cannot show the path to another blind ...... how much ever we study and
grasp all that we can - We all are still Blind to a finite extent ......

Sitaram: True, I suppose. But who is it that shows (enlightens) your
Guru... or any Guru... you see the problem?

Crispin: No - it is said the Guru shows up when the time comes.... it is our
surrender and craving for the Guru that we place before the Lord that will
make us realize us the presence of the Guru near us

Sitaram: Well... except any physical guru is a person just like us.... they
were babies... they were sometimes naughty children.... they had sexual
feelings to cope with... they got angry somtimes... etc etc etc

Sitaram: Where shall we send Sean to find a Guru? And if there were a
Guru for Sean.... would Sean really want that? Sean has his own stubborn
ways!

Sitaram: A Guru is good for YOU, Crispin, because you are at a stage of
development where you SEEK a Guru.

Sitaram: Bhakti (devotion) to a personal form of God is good for someone
who is in the condition where they SEEK that....but it is not good for all.

Sitaram: for others.... impersonal divinity, and jnana is what is good,
because they are at a stage to seek THAT

Crispin: Yes - true indeed

Sitaram: and we cannot send the entire world to one city in south India,...
not all 6 billion... (there would be a sewage problem)

Crispin: and neither am I ready... its just that the thought has occurred
and we seem to be in a similar state

Sitaram: you know... I am thinking of Siddhartha Gautama, the Buddha,
his final words at death

Sitaram: Seek with all diligence.... and be a lamp unto yourselves
(paraphrasing from memory)

Sitaram: Buddha did not advocate Gurus,.... yet today, millions think of
Buddha as their Guru (in a fashion)

Crispin: This doesnt mean that he never had a Guru ...... he might have
had one in His previous births...... Of course, what the Buddha says is true
- but the only aspect is that

Sitaram: even the 10th Sikh Guru proclaimed that there would be no
future human Gurus, but that the scriptures Adi Granth would be Guru.

Crispin: At certain stages for everybody, we do feel the need for one .....
yes - those Gurus are different from the one u talk about - they are Gurus
to Humanity ...... but are not personal Gurus to all...... but of course, I
dont advocate that everyone should start looking for one...

Crispin: a few yrs down the line - I would have dismissed this idea too .....
but now - I feel I require one .....

Sitaram: in a sense, when we seek a personal Guru, or when we seek
grace and forgiveness and redemption through "salvation", we are looking
for an "easy way out"

Sitaram: I am not saying "do not seek a guru"
Sitaram: I am saying "keep things in perspective"

Crispin: EASY WAY OUT.... True.....Why would anyone want to take the
toughest route

Crispin: only if found ELIGIBLE... the Destination can never be obtained

Crispin: I realized that Karma Yoga suited me better

Crispin: then realized that I falter even in that .... then towards Bhakti -

Crispin: again I realized that I wasnt able to adhere to my ways 24 hrs a
day ..... I still had a lot of ego and I was taking quite a few wrong
decisions and sinning of my own

Crispin: thats when I felt the need for the Guru

Sitaram: a flame is ever flickering, wavering.... yet this inconstancy does
not mean that the flame give no light

Crispin: True, but I now know that the flame CAN give light

Sitaram: consciousness is energy

Sitaram: divinity is consciousness

Sitaram: it is the nature of energy to fluctuate (flicker)

Sitaram: seek that coming-to-be and passing-away which ITSELF does not
come to be nor pass away

Sitaram: an infinite circle has its center EVERYWHERE, but its
circumference NOWHERE

Crispin: ok so ?

Sitaram: you want easy answer

Crispin: you mean the easy way out ?

Sitaram: easy means easy... no work

Crispin: I never said no work

Sitaram: If a Guru is perfect... and the guru perfects YOU , then YOU must
become Guru

Crispin: EXACTLY
Crispin: True indeed

Sitaram: yes... Jesus says.... "those who come after me shall do GREATER works than I

Crispin: who is a Guru now and who WAS perfected

Crispin: I have met him only once

Sitaram: and yet, it is said, a student may not be greater than his teacher

Crispin: True - but the student can Equal the Teacher
Crispin: if the Teacher wills so
Crispin: and the student is Graced
Crispin: but I still dunno if He is my Guru.... if He is, I will get to realize that .....

Sitaram: daily life with ANYONE, a spouse, a parent, a child, a teacher,
means INTIMACY, and involves some measure of disillusionment or
disappointment

Sitaram: live with your Guru each day for 10 years, and then tell me of
his perfection

Crispin: Sure only that I am not yet ripe enough to do that

Sitaram: so, what would YOU like to tell Sean, to help him in his "confusion"

Crispin: TO stick to Christ and have full faith in Him and not worry about
other concepts ..... and go about living his life doing his duties and
showing his love for Christ

Crispin: Because in His heart - Sean wants the angel's answer to be " The
Christian path is the right one" - so he should go ahead in his path and not
worry about others......

Sitaram: yes... you are correct I think

Crispin: and He will make progress

Sitaram: he is asking questions, but he wants to hear only a certain
answer

Crispin: Exactly..... something that even I want

Sitaram: many seek out somone who will tell them what they WANT to
hear

Crispin: even though I know what I say cant be generalized - its a Huge
BOOST to my EGO (atleast apparently) if someone on the other side says
something that I want to hear .........

Crispin: and I would consider him as my Guru....

Crispin: at the same time, its very very difficult to find one.... but hope
lingers....

Sitaram: so, we look OUTSIDE of ourselves, and yet it is always SELF that
we seek

Crispin: yes - some external all knowing force that hurts and refines the
ego and dissolves it..... the experience that Vivekananda once had from
Ramakrishna, where Ramakrishna throws up an illusion where Naren finds
himself and his ego so puny in the entire Creation.... of course, it didnt
cure him eternally but it prepared Naren to become Swami Vivekananda

Sitaram: Good example, yet, who was Guru for Ramakrishna?

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