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Sitaram
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Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 1079
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 Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 1:06 am Post subject: Two Heads Are Better Than One |
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erhankayalik : Hi!
literarydiscussions: Hello there!
erhankayalik : I just arrived to the dormatory
literarydiscussions: Welcome back home!
erhankayalik : Thanks. I have to learn all of misteries of SPSS.
literarydiscussions: A statistics program? I have heard of it, but know
nothing about it.
erhankayalik : By entering variables you get outputs by doing necessary
proccesses: crostabs, frequincies
literarydiscussions: The classic, box-like nature of every function....
something goes in, something else comes out
erhankayalik : Right! So right!
Dear, I have created a circle, a chain of thougths, a kind of philosophy
But I dont want to tell about it in detail to people ,and of questions in this
thought is (not a very serious question in whole chain) about relations
between people. Do you think relations are some kind of trade that is
developed in folks to live together (even the question is so traditional to
investigate public relations and individual it is a good question)?
literarydiscussions: How interesting. I must think about this for a moment.
| wrote: |
Are the relations (interactions) between people a form of TRADE (quid pro
quo) which makes possible an atmosphere of peace or harmony in which
society may live.
|
There! I have tried to put it into my own words.
Notice that QUID PRO QUO means (something performed or given or
provided with the explicit hope or understanding that something else will
be received or done in return)
erhankayalik : Yes
literarydiscussions: This touches upon works such as Rousseau (Social
Contract), Hobbes Leviathan, Locke, in a political sense... and I am
reminded of Psychologist, Alfred Adler, the psychologist, and his book
"What Life Could Mean for You"... in an interpersonal sense...and, in
literature, I am reminded of Silas Marner by George Eliot (Mary Evans)
We might add to all this Platos Republic, and Aristotles Politics.
erhankayalik : You say there are lots of from every philosophy in this
thought.
literarydiscussions: Life is similar to a Mathematical function.... you put
something in, you expect something to come out
erhankayalik : Right
literarydiscussions: In friendships, relationships, we put something in,
and expect something to "come out of it"
erhankayalik : effect and reflect in physics
literarydiscussions: You might take a look at Homer's Iliad, the battlefield
dialogue between Glaukos and Diomedes, in which gifts are exchanged.
erhankayalik : Isaac Newton
literarydiscussions: Yes, the 3rd law: action, equal and opposite reaction
erhankayalik : I read it
literarydiscussions: And yet, consider the laws of Thermodynamics,...
which predict a gradual, inevitable HEAT DEATH,...
The entire universe, as a system, must wind down like a clock, until all
energy is equally distributed, and luke warm at which point... nothing
more can happen... no more events. Think of "exchange"..... and
differences of potential energy... Life itself feeds on "negative entropy"
erhankayalik : Right and one more thing conflicts occurs because of the
unsatisfaction of seller and buyer. it is so natural
literarydiscussions: Negative entropy means some very high degree of
organization, like a crystal, with much energy bound up, potential energy,
waiting to be released,.... then a living thing EATS IT or releases that
energy in some way... entropy, on the other hand (as opposed to
NEGATIVE entropy) is a high measure of disorder, disorganization,
randomness...
erhankayalik : organisation collect things to postpone its death
time(negative entropy)
literarydiscussions: the laws of thermodynamics predict that the entire
universe shall eventually become luke warm,.... incapable of supporting
more reactions, interactions, exchanges...
erhankayalik : total inputs =total outpus ha
literarydiscussions: Issac Asimov wrote a short story, science fiction,
entitled "The Final Question" (or was it the final problem, final solution),
about computers set to solve the problem of HEAT DEATH
erhankayalik : hiiim. i havent read it, but i think iwill
literarydiscussions: in asimov's story.... generation after generation of
people , increase their technology, improve their computers....
and each generation places the same question to the new computers... to
solve the problem of HEAT DEATH
but.... never is their any solution...
Finally, at the end of time, the end of history,... humans have become god
like in their powers and knowledge,... and their computers have become
god like
but....still no answer to the heat death problem...
and finally the universe and all life DOES end in heat death.... BUT...
literarydiscussions: those computers are now so advanced, that they exist
in some other dimension, unaffected...
so.. the computers continue to work on the final problem..
and at the end of the story, they find the SOLUTION, the answer... and the
story ends with the words LET THERE BE LIGHT
WHICH, of course is the first words of the Bible, Genesis, where God
creates everything...
Asimov is being very clever in his story
erhankayalik : i m now looking about asimov in internet
i think there are some his books in scool's library
literarydiscussions: there is a different story.... called "THe Nine Billion
Names of God"
erhankayalik : i think i have heard of it
literarydiscussions: some Tibetan monks build a computer to discover the
nine billion names of God.... in the belief that the universe will end once
they are all known
well... at the end of the story... the computer finishes its task... and
someone looks at the night sky, and sees the stars going out, one by one
erhankayalik : in islam god have 99 names beware of 9s in lots of
cultures
literarydiscussions: yes i am familiar with Islam, and the 99 names... and
i think there is a notion of a 100th, unknown...
now Yann Martel, in "LIfe of Pi" writes the book in EXACTLY 100
chapters.... which has something to do with this names of god notion
erhankayalik : is it a new popular book kind cos i dont like popular cultere
books
literarydiscussions: but, it is a brilliant novel... which shall become
important in future generations
erhankayalik : hiimmm so i will lok it toobut iwant tosay that i dont have
any problem but this products of capital lokks so made up
erhankayalik : problem with capital
literarydiscussions: think of the problems regarding SPECULATION, where
the value of a stock increases beyond the actual value of the company,...
and then there is a CRASH, and an economic depression
erhankayalik : right
literarydiscussions: hmmm.... let us think about the "energy" of the
universe, with regard to thermodynamics, and entropy....
and let is try to find an ANALOGY, an analog, in the ENERGY, involved in
interpersonal relationships, on a one to one level, in a small community,
on a national level, and on a global level
is one SYSTEM in any way a mirror of the other, obeying similar laws
erhankayalik : you say think about an energy that got a higher level ond
is a mirror of everything?
literarydiscussions: In Shakespeares "Midsummer nights Dream", Miranda
(whose name means Wonder/Miracle) says "Oh, brave new world that
has such people in it." but the reply she receives is "It is new to YOU"
erhankayalik : oooowww thats good
literarydiscussions: Aristotle said, in the beginning of the
Metaphysics...."Philosophy begins in WONDER" (Miranda)
so.... part of the energy of human activity is a psychological WONDER,
curiosity.... so each new generation of children,.... are like miranda,...
everything is NEW to them...
Vladimir Nabokov, in "Pale Fire", wrote: "Curiosity is the highest form of
insubordination."
so, curiosity, wonder.... is a fuel of sorts.... for inventions, revolutions,
conquests, exploration...
but, the unrest of wonder, curiosity, leads to questioning and instability...
political instability...
a tyrranical, autocratic government seeks to extinguish wonder,
questioning, curiosity.... since it is a source of disobedience,
insubordination
so.... we see our world history as a great, dynamic, reaction... from the
middle ages, through the renaissance,... with the rise of democratic
republics,... and today, as you see the world now... with different systems
and ideologies,.... communist, socialcist, theocracy, democracy...
dictatorship...
we may view the history of the world as a long chemical reaction....
in which there are the "exchanges" which you mention.... (something in
exchange for something else... expectations)...
expectations fulfilled,... expectations disappointed
from the time of the Russian revolution,.... communism was a 70 year
experiment, spanning 3 generations,... and yet it was an economic
failure...
and... religion, that "opiate of the people", could not be cured...
when the soviet union dissolved, and things were free, people came out
clamoring for all kinds of religion... jews wanted to be jewish... there were
even those who came to america to be Hare Krishna hindu.... and
temples had to set up lessons in Russian language
there are some things which change,.... and there are other things which
remain forever the same
erhankayalik : every thing you say i understand exept some words and
im agree wih you
literarydiscussions: i am age 56...i have devoted many years to such
readings and thoughts.... and it is like climbing a vast mountain.....
the higher you get,... the more the view changes... the more you feel you
can see...
but.... you cannot easily share what you see and understand with
others....
only if they also make the same journey, climb the same mountain, spend
many years...
only then can they arrive at the place where you are, and see the same
view...
erhankayalik : you have observations and you appresalled them in
acorrect way
literarydiscussions: i do not have all the answers.... but i have some
interesting questions
perhaps i have no answers
but, questions are also important
erhankayalik : questions are base of philosophy
literarydiscussions: it is when we stop questioning... that is a "heat death"
of sorts
erhankayalik : hi hi right
literarydiscussions: there are forms of government which seek to repress,
silence, all questioning, all curiosity...
erhankayalik : cos
literarydiscussions: there are other forms of governent which seek to
encourage questioning and curiosity
erhankayalik : but i ensure you that all systems seek stability
literarydiscussions: the power of a tyranny depends upon complete
surrender of the people,... to surrender their individuality, their
questioning, their curiosity
true... the democracy wants to ensure its future stability
so it passes a law against plotting to overthow the government by violent
means...
those who attempt this are seized and executed...
literarydiscussions: but... there is provision for changing the government,
by elections, by due process of law, by amendments
erhankayalik : how much is it healty(i cant find the right word)
it si right but how much
literarydiscussions: yes... what measure of freedom is tolerable, and what
measure of freedom leads to instability... it is a delicate balance
For example, the very first commandment in the Bible, in Genesis, the
first thing man is explicitly told to do is "be fruitful and multiply"...
meaning.. have lots of children...populate the earth...
but, now, in China, you see the one child law, which seems cruel, but was
necessary to postpone a great disaster of overpopulation...
erhankayalik : yes peole here thinks the republic
is something great,holy
but they cant understand
we gave some our power to government to they protect us and give us
right conditions to live
do you know about old turcsfrom middle asia
if khan does something they wont support they pick up their thing ad
leave the khan
one of my teacher described them as people that votes with their feet
literarydiscussions: well... i do not know a great deal, but as i said the
other day, i admire the wisdom of kemal ataturk, to destroy some of the
old ottoman ways, and attempt to modernize
a nation can no longer survive if half the population, the women, are
illiterate, and second class, and unskilled, and prisoners....
as one example...
literarydiscussions: a person with the mentality of a cleric or imam or
fundamentalist can never make a scientific discovery... to cure cancer or
aids...
because their mind is totally bogged down with racas, and halal and
haram, etc etc etc
erhankayalik : cos he says deasese comes from god
literarydiscussions: and mighty questions such as "should i wash the
stones that i cast at the pillars during hajj
Salman Rushdie was totally correct when he said that reform must come
for islam, and it will come from the diaspora of muslims who live scattered
as minorities within a larger multicultural populace
erhankayalik : islam
and all of other religions
turan dursun says
literarydiscussions: yes, and all fundamentalist religions
erhankayalik : if they wont exist humankind hasnt got one couse to fight
but i think its
nature of people
they fell themselves to find,
literarydiscussions: i found one easy, scientific proof, to discredit the
quran and islam.... and it was on a documentary on educational
television... about a 10 year old child with TWO HEADS,.... two separate
brains sharing one body...
now.. the Qu'ran says nothing about what to do, should one head become
muslim, while the other chants hare krishna..
erhankayalik : some words i dont know here could you explain
literarydiscussions: nature has permitted one child to be born with two
heads... sharing one body. The child is age 10
erhankayalik : ok
literarydiscussions: so ... obviously, whatever god , if there is a god, has
permitted this childe with two heads to be born and survive.
literarydiscussions: yet, the quran makes no provision...
literarydiscussions: suppose one wants to be a catholic nun... and the
other wants to be a co wife in islam
erhankayalik : hiim
erhankayalik : islam says if head choose islam other parts also will belong
to islam but what about if one of this heods choose another blief
erhankayalik : information about paradoxes in islam
literarydiscussions: it is only understandable when you accept that islam is
the invention of the mind of mohammed.... and that the nature of "allah"
could not possibly describe the nature of an actual god, if god exists
erhankayalik : we can call whatever we beliave as source of life
erhankayalik : as god
erhankayalik : i mean it can be named as god
literarydiscussions: it is not possible for one to be highly educated, and
democratic, and also believe islam and quran, as a fundamentalist... the
two minds are mutually exclusive
erhankayalik : right
literarydiscussions: one will become a bin laden, and the other will
become a salman rushdie
erhankayalik : but people take abit from one and abit from other thus
they meintenance their lives in this system
erhankayalik : this manner is called as oppotunism in socialist
termonology
Last edited by Sitaram on Tue May 16, 2006 2:05 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Sitaram
Site Admin
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 1079
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| Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 1:40 am Post subject: |
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literarydiscussions: hello there... nice to see you on line
Hostility: Nice to be here
Hostility: how has your day been?
literarydiscussions: well,... i had a few valuable discussions yesterday
morning (Thursday), which I posted at my message board. One with a
college student in Turkey
literarydiscussions: and a talented high school student in Germany (i
think), posted an interesting essay on Scarlet Letter vs. Tesse of the
D'Urbervilles
Hostility: under which forum did you post the discussions?
Hostility: dialogues?
literarydiscussions: i think dialogues, yes... but i can find you the link
Hostility: That will work, or tell me the topic
literarydiscussions: and of course, if you are logged into the message
board.... you can always click on Sitaram, and click on VIEW ALL POSTS
Hostility: you've posted alot
Hostility: lol
Hostility: that would take some time
literarydiscussions: But, it is always displayed with most recent first
literarydiscussions: so, i used it just now to find my post
Hostility: simply tell me the subject, that will do
literarydiscussions: http://literarydiscussions.myfree...sutra1090.php&highlight=#1090
Hostility: or that as well
literarydiscussions: entitled Death of the Universe version 2
Hostility: rather vain of you to define quid pro quo, ha
literarydiscussions: these foreign students in these chats barely
understand english... i must take nothing for granted
literarydiscussions: look at his grammar and spelling
Hostility: I noticed......... perhaps leave out french terms
Hostility: lol
literarydiscussions: well.... i have to be myself, to some extent.... and he
was preparing for an english exam,... so... it is good for him, to stretch,
exercise...
Hostility: I suppose so
Hostility: Not relavent to age, but rather resisted the urge to take one's
own life for as long as we have.....
Hostility: You see, much like you most likely, I resist the urge each and
every day to rise
literarydiscussions: oh... i know i must do that eventually.... when it no
longer becomes possible to survive economically
literarydiscussions: there is no long range hope or future for me...
Hostility: Shall it appear an accident?
literarydiscussions: i dont know... i would really like to find some way to
donate all my organs... seriously... but right now.... it is more productive
for me to edit that dialogue... which is what i am doing
Hostility: of course, as I was about to recommend
literarydiscussions: all the posts could use lots of editing.... and i could
use a staff of assistants.... but at least, if i can get something "down on
paper", some seeds of ideas.... well,... look about you, on the net.... few
other people are doing even this much
Hostility: how long do you think you will be able to survive economically?
literarydiscussions: what does it matter.... not worth thinking..... all the
people in the twin towers, had you asked them such a question the day
before.... what would their answers mean... the NOW is what is
important... and what I can do with this dialogue
literarydiscussions: and whether some of my words can survive...
literarydiscussions: if my words and thoughts shall not survive... then
what does it matter regarding my person
Hostility: for some odd reason, I sensed that something regarding
September 11 would be mentioned during our conversation.....
Hostility: that's one of the oddest things that has ever happened to me.
Hostility: The longer you are here to spout your words and thoughts, the
more likely some will survive
Hostility: do you grammatically fix each piece of dialogue?
literarydiscussions: i do the best i can.... someone may have all the
wonderful spelling and grammar in the world... but at the end of their life,
if they have produced nothing, left nothing, said nothing, then what was
that grammar and spelling worth...
Hostility: I am an excellent proofreader
Hostility: and I would be happy to assist you if you ever need it
literarydiscussions: well... that is very kind..
literarydiscussions: you are welcome to have a forum of your own... to
copy posts there, edit them at your discretion... and i will copy the
finished product back in place... if that is what you would like to do
literarydiscussions: then, you may pick and choose what interests you,
work at your own leisure/pace...
literarydiscussions: ha ha.. in this dialogue... my two-headed child
argument really blows islam out of the water....
Hostility: ha
literarydiscussions: for the very simple reason that, the two headed child
exists, so if there IS a god in the universe, then that god permitted such a
thing...
Hostility: indeed
literarydiscussions: but the divinely revealed religion and scripture of that
god provides no instructions for such a situation
Hostility: How horribly ironic, just as religions and religion clerical people
do not work well without instructions, I am much the same
literarydiscussions: i should really rename the dialogue "Two Heads are
Better Than One"
Hostility: Lmao
Hostility: You really did use that argument well
Hostility: it is not possible for one to be highly educated, and democratic,
and also believe islam and quran, as a fundamentalist... the two minds
are mutually exclusive
Hostility: I love that
literarydiscussions: well, it is so obvious, to look at the mind and life of a
bin Laden, and then look at a Salman Rushdie
literarydiscussions: or compare WIlliam F. Buckley, Jr. with Mohammed
Ali, or any number of other people...
Hostility: horribly true
literarydiscussions: compare einstein and stephan hawking to martin
luther and john calvin
Hostility: Though, I don't really know if it's fair to compare Rushdie to bin
Laden
literarydiscussions: or compare the life of plato to hitler,... the mind,
outlook, goals, methodology
literarydiscussions: history is truly a treasure chest of possibilities for the
mind.. or, toy chest...
Hostility: A somewhat off the topic question inspired by your citing of
martin luther: Is it not strange that more christians than not, when the
name martin luther were mentioned, they would not think of the great one
who changed the church, but rather the one who was part of the civil
rights movement?
Hostility: Too many are ironically blind to their own beliefs
literarydiscussions: yes, there is always that confusion with martin luther
KING... so i often add, martin luther OF THE 16TH CENTURY PROTESTANT
REFORMATION, to be very clear
Hostility: only a fool, which many people are, would think of King first
literarydiscussions: but i knew if i said luther and calvin in the same
breath, you would understand
literarydiscussions: noo, on the contrary... many people know little of the
reformation luther...
Hostility: I may not be quite the smartest person in the world, but when
the words luther are spoken, he who changed the church comes to mind
before King
Hostility: Indeed
Hostility: It is ironic
Hostility: that he is not taught about hardly at all
literarydiscussions: you see.... my writings can really do far more for the
world, if somehow they can reach simpler people...... for the simple
reason that the intellectuals and scholars will have their own ideas, and
may be resistant to mine
Hostility: as a child, I remember my culture studies book having two
paragraphs of Martin Luther, and two chapters on King
literarydiscussions: but, if young people in Turkey and Iran and Pakistan
can read some of these things, and understand, then it might make quite
a difference in the world
Hostility: Very true
Hostility: I am afraid that, in some ways, Gandhi was overrated
literarydiscussions: every historical figure is subject to the phenomenon of
heroification. look at what Carl Sandburg did to Lincoln, granting
luminosity even to his flatulence
Hostility: Very true
literarydiscussions: it was and is being done to JF Kennedy
literarydiscussions: and Mother Theresa... and many others
Hostility: Mother Theresa certainly
literarydiscussions: but.. that process of exaggeration does not detract
from the actual virtues of the individuals life and work...
Hostility: JFK has suffered some, but I think he is worthy of some praise
atleast
Hostility: indeed
literarydiscussions: more of us should look a Plutarch's Lives
literarydiscussions: which show, i think, a greater realism and balance
Hostility: I am curious, do you have any thoughts on the current Pope?
literarydiscussions: he was their best choice at this time... the most
important thing that the RC church has going for it is dogmatic and
liturgical uniformity and continuity, universality. If that goes, then they
become just one among many Protestant denominations, which would
soon splinter into a myriad of sub-denominations
Hostility: Very possible
literarydiscussions: the world likes authority, and the idea of a pope....
they look for a pope of islam, a pope of hinduism...
Hostility: This is truth
literarydiscussions: billy graham is a pope of sorts
Hostility: ha! I never really thought in such a fashion....
literarydiscussions: there is a very long street in Brooklyn, I forget the
name, Dekalb I think, but a bus takes 40 minutes to travel the length. And
you can see, in each and every block, at lest one, but sometimes two
store front churches, with the pastor's name emblazoned. Each of those
little store fonts has its own papal authority and infallibility. The
Reformation changed nothing, but simply multiplied it.
Hostility: ha, I could not agree more....
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