| Archive for literarydiscussions.myfreeforum.org Literature, Poetry, Essays, Dialogues, Philosophy, Theology |
| Sitaram |
Foreknowledge and FreewillSitaram says:you saw me on line and were thinking/wondering Sandy says: how you were , yes Sitaram says: When I saw that you typed "swame" I was thinking of a Hindu "swami" who reads minds, thats why I was confused for a moment. Sandy says: Now that sounds interesting. I wish I could Sitaram says: well, but perhaps we would be less happy if we knew the secret thoughts of everyone, or if we saw the future Sandy says: funny I was thinking that the other day. If we knew what was to happen would we have interest or drive Sitaram says: I am suddenly reminded of a novel that Sartre’s lifelong girlfriend wrote, "All Men are Mortal", about a man who was immortal. I have not read it. Someone could write a novel about when happens when you suddenly can read minds and know the future Sandy says: Would we care? Sitaram says: Simone de Beauvoir http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos...8456/002-4295717-5094402?v=glance (excerpts): This book clearly shows, without death, life has no meaning Fosca goes into battle, but knows deep down he risks nothing and he is not the hero his fellow soldiers think he is. She says his devotion to her means nothing : she is devoting her life to him while he will have hundreds of other wives after her Without sacrificing our life or part of it, we give nothing Through this immortal life that de Beauvoir explores what it means to be human, what it means to exist, He watches the failure of humankind again and again What is the point in trying to change things when their essence remains the same throughout time A thoughtful, chilling look at humankind and our desire for perfection. Sandy says: But maybe that is the point perhaps if we are forewarned You were saying what was the point if we knew perhaps that is the point if we were forewarned perhaps we could change things more than one future Sitaram says: I shall tell you something fascinating... which very few people know or understand , in the new testament gospels yet it is right under our noses... regarding what you just said, about knowing the future and changing it I may possibly be the first to have ever made this theological observation / analysis It is when Jesus says to Peter "before the rooster crows twice, you shall deny me THREE TIMES" Sandy says: You are giving me goose bumps. Do tell Sitaram says: And of course Peter denies up and down that he would do such a thing BUT... here is the key point... WHEN the moment comes and peter does deny three times.... his memory is obviously clouded over, so that the words of Jesus would not affect his actions... and it clearly states that, only AFTER the denial, do the words of Jesus come to his mind... ok... so here is the analysis from an ancient Greek Orthodox theological perspective..... The Greeks call Jesus "The-anthropos" from theos (god) plus anthropos (human being) pronounced THAY-anthropos now the ancient Greek theologians state that god is not simply eternal, for god create all eternal things, ... rather god is PRE-ETERNAL.... dwelling outside of time and eternity so from that pre eternal vantage point (and this is a great mystery) ALL OF OUR FUTURE CHOICES are seen, foreknown... YET in no way in no way does that foreknowledge ROB us of our freedom of choice at the moment of time that we choose, when it arrives hence.... when Jesus tells Peter "you shall deny me three times BEFORE THE ROOSTER has even crowed two time" This is the theanthropos speaking from the pre-eternal vantage point, seeing all future free will choices as present, as now and it is quite significant that the detail is added regarding the rooster... Jesus does not simply say "you shall deny me at some future point" or even "you shall deny me three times at some future point" ...which would be vague predictions... Nor even does he say, "you shall deny me WHEN the rooster crows..." the REASON why Peter's memory is clouded over at the moment of his free will choice.... is that the theanthropos SEES a future free will choice and chooses to tell about it... BUT, if the TELLING were to alter the humans choice,... then that person would be ROBBED of their free will.... so, there is a purpose behind the entire episode.... a purpose in revealing the future and then clouding it.... in order to make a subtle point... BUT, TIME AND AGAIN in old and new testament, it is demonstrated that human free will choice is INVIOLABLE and essential... so, there was a reason to foretell the denial,... but also a reason to protect peter through forgetfulness... so that he would exercise his free will choice... Jesus does not make a prediction of some future thing that he is certain shall happen... Jesus SEES the future moment as a present moment from the pre eternal vantage point in fact, these Judeo-Christian analyses of free will are one argument of refutation against Islam and the Quran because.... throughout the bible, whenever an angel appears to a human... the humans are afraid, and the angel calms them down, saying "fear not... be of good cheer" but, when Gabriel appears to Mohammed.... it is a terrifying episode where Gabriel grabs and squeezes Muhammad almost to death and commands "PROCLAIM" which is a violation of free will and then, Muhammad, like a puppet, blurts out "Bismillah al rahman al raheen" "In the name of Allah, the beneficent, the merciful" Sitaram says: so... can you see , can you understand, regarding peter, time , eternity, free will but, you see, no one has thought of it precisely in that way for 2000 years Sandy says: Could it be then that god intervened made it as he predicted we have free will to make our choices but the future, I s already planned ...so it seems whatever we do, we think we have free choice ... Sitaram says: NO, that is NOT how it is. ok... think about this mystery.... if you have a container filled with some gas..... then, if you examine the behavior of each molecule,.... it seems totally free, random, irrational, unpredictable..... BUT, if you study the behavior of the entire container of gas,.... it follows precise laws of temperature, pressure, flow, etc... Sitaram says: so... think of the gas molecule as one person, individual... but think of the container of gas as the entire human race... so,... on a microcosmic level, everything is very free, random, unpredictable... on a macrocosmic level, everything is constrained by very precise mathematical laws, and quite predictable Sandy says: We are what we are? Sitaram says: We see the same if we compare the smooth orderly predictable motions of galaxies in Relativity, with the surrealistic vagueness of quantum particles.... on a microcosm Sandy says: A little above but will muse over it. Are you saying that although we have choices free will because of out nature whatever are we will act in a certain way so therefore our choices are made Sitaram says: NO! Our mind is very linear, addicted to logic, a certain specific kind of logic, Aristotelian, syllogistic, A implied B, B implies C, etc etc So... we try to reduce everything to that logic and we try to resolve ambiguities, paradoxes.... but,.... there are phenomena which do not fit into that logical scheme such as the dual nature of light, behaving BOTH as a wave AND as a particle Our minds want to resolve what we see as a contradiction, (and contradictions make us uncomfortable) The idea is that we BOTH TRULY HAVE FREEDOM AT THE MOMENT of choice AND ALSO the outcome of all choices can be foreknown, without that foreknowledge predetermining them think of it in this fashion... We are in what we call the future,....looking back into what we call the past, history.... and we see that Brutus choose to assassinate Caesar... We do not feel that our knowledge in any way forced Brutus to choose one particular course of action... Wf a little ant is wandering on a pavement.... and I am standing as a giant, to see the overall pattern of that motion... From a perspective which the ant cannot share.... I can see that the ant is traveling, on the hot pavement,... in a path which will ultimately bring the ant to the cool green grass.... But my FOREKNOWLDGE from my vantage, does not rob the ant of the freedom of each step I am like God to the ant, and the ant is unaware of my presence or nature. Any example that I might give would be only an approximation to the actual thing... and not the thing in itself... Sandy says: that is a good example. I can see how the prediction is made and how outside elements you standing on it or rain would also enter into the equation Sitaram says: Jesus says something interesting about weather forecasting Sandy says: but the possiblity of finding cool grass from hot pavement is still the same Sitaram says: Jesus says, (paraphrasing) "What is the matter with all of you... you can look at the sky and see that it is red and lowering, and you know that certain weather is coming..... but you cannot see the obvious signs of other matters Sandy says: guess we believe what we understand Sitaram says: rabbi Abraham Heschel , in his book, "The Prophets" wrote, "We must learn to understand what we actually see, rather than to merely see (recognize) ONLY that which we understand" |