| Archive for literarydiscussions.myfreeforum.org Literature, Poetry, Essays, Dialogues, Philosophy, Theology |
| Sitaram |
Gandhi and FreudIranian_Student: what do you do I never askedSitaram: ohhh... very simple office work.... for very low pay.... Iranian_Student: you dont like your job then Sitaram: it is not a matter of like or dislike... but people sometimes think I am wealthy powerful influential american.... or college professor... Iranian_Student: Sitaram: so.. my anwer is the most honest accurate one, which corrects their thinking Iranian_Student: because you are literary Sitaram: and sometimes, (in India) they beg for a job or green card... or something extraordinary... which I could not provide if I wanted to Iranian_Student: am not expecting you anything haha Sitaram: so...my answer is one that I give often to a frequently asked question... Sitaram: I did not think you were expecting... but my answer is conditioned by many such questions Iranian_Student: yes it was perhaps a stupid question Sitaram: I have a new member at my message board... a young woman in Kansas, who writes poetry Sitaram: she is there now... Iranian_Student: oh she is talking with you? Sitaram: well, right now.. she is reading my poems there Iranian_Student: oh interesting Sitaram: I valued our conversation of this morning... Iranian_Student: thank you Sitaram: I shall begin to read and paraphrase Asar Nafisi's "Reading Lolita in Tehran" Sitaram: paraphrasing is perfectly legal... copyright wise Sitaram: so... then many who are curious, may know the essence of her book Sitaram: even though it is banned in Iran Iranian_Student: yes yes Sitaram: this will be beneficial for me,... and for others Iranian_Student: and yes surely for me Iranian_Student: I am not in a talking mood tonight Iranian_Student: you must excuse me Sitaram: ok... good.. so if I come across things of interest.. and especially,... my paraphrased digests of Asar Nafisi... Sitaram: I shall copy you Sitaram: for your convenience... Iranian_Student: thank you Sitaram: and also, I shall post them at the message board... in a forum entitled "Lolita in Tehran" in the "Bookstore in Kabul" Sitaram: that is a clever forum title... Sitaram: and I shall discuss that other book.... "Bookstore in Kabul Iranian_Student: who wrote it? Sitaram: a woman who is native of Norway, I can find her name in a minute.... she lived in Kabul for 3 months with the bookseller family Iranian_Student: oh I see Sitaram: Asne Seierstad Sitaram: The Bookseller of Kabul Iranian_Student: oh thanks Sitaram: After living for three months with the Kabul bookseller Sultan Khan in the spring of 2002, Norwegian journalist Seierstad penned this astounding portrait of a nation recovering from war, undergoing political flux and mired in misogyny and poverty. As a Westerner, she has the privilege of traveling between the worlds of men and women, and though the book is ostensibly a portrait of Khan, its real strength is the intimacy and brutal honesty with which it portrays the lives of Afghani living under fundamentalist Islam. Sitaram: Seierstad also expertly outlines Sultan's fight to preserve whatever he can of the literary life of the capital during its numerous decades of warfare (he stashed some 10,000 books in attics around town). Seierstad, though only 31, is a veteran war reporter and a skilled observer; as she hides behind her burqa, the men in the Sultan's family become so comfortable with her presence that she accompanies one of Sultan's sons on a religious pilgrimage and witnesses another buy sex from a beggar girl-then offer her to his brother. Sitaram: This is only one of many equally shocking stories Seierstad uncovers. In another, an adulteress is suffocated by her three brothers as ordered by their mother. Seierstad's visceral account is equally seductive and repulsive and resembles the work of Martha Gellhorn. An international bestseller, it will likely stand as one of the best books of reportage of Afghan life after the fall of the Taliban. Sitaram: She accompanied the women as they shopped and dressed for a wedding and was privy to the negotiations for the marriage. She tells of the death by suffocation of a young woman who met her lover in secret, the bored meanderings of a 12-year-old boy forced to work 12-hour days selling candy in a hotel lobby Iranian_Student: ah Sitaram: Sultan Khan had his head in the clouds if he thought he was going to emerge from this journalist's immersion in his family's life looking like a benevolent god. He's suing her, as the book-reading world knows by now, for something like defamation of character. I'm sure he thought she would extol his virtues; instead, she wrote honestly of the fiercely patriarchal Afghanistan/Muslim traditional family structure that keeps his tyranny intact and subjugates all women, regardless of their educational level or social status. Sitaram: It's not great literature; it's great reportage Iranian_Student: oh I see Sitaram: But it gives a voice to the women in the extended Family (meant in the broadest sense of the word), a voice that speaks for millions of women in the Middle East, a voice that must be heard. Especially heartbreaking is the fate of Leila, sister of Sultan Khan, educated, literate, bright - but unable to speak up for herself to escape a lifetime of servitude Sitaram: this is all cut and paste from amazon.com reviews of the book Iranian_Student: oh thank you Iranian_Student: its interesting Iranian_Student: you still live in wonderland? Sitaram: ? Iranian_Student: India Sitaram: I have never been to India Iranian_Student: oh Sitaram: I have never been outside the USA Sitaram: except one trip in 1971 to canada montreal Sitaram: and one cruise to Bermuda in 1994 Iranian_Student: oh Iranian_Student: I thought you are Indian because of your name! Iranian_Student: its an strange name for an american Sitaram: true Iranian_Student: could you introduce me some good books? Sitaram: well.. certainly.... Iranian_Student: thank you Iranian_Student: or authors Sitaram: well of course... many older works are available at gutenberg.org Iranian_Student: I must know the authors or the name of the books Sitaram: http://www.gutenberg.org/ Iranian_Student: I know the site Sitaram: if you want free downloads Sitaram: ok Iranian_Student: I need the name Sitaram: of course... if you were to attempt James Joyce, "Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man" then you would be challenged by the Irish world of Joyce, saturated with Christian theology... which one student in Bahrain found difficult, because of her lack of familiarity Sitaram: I tried to help her with suggestions, to gain a foundation... Iranian_Student: yes I have read that Sitaram: ok.. Sitaram: well.. there IS an online version of Salman Rushdie's "The Satanic Verses"... which is fascinating, and well done... and very forbidden where you are Sitaram: it is an illegal copy on the internet.... not authorized Iranian_Student: what is the address Sitaram: I have the link at home (i am at work...) let me see if I can find it here Sitaram: actually,... that site has other things like, 'the Life of Pi" by Yann Martel Sitaram: which is excellent Iranian_Student: oh yes I started reading that! Iranian_Student: you mentioned that to me Iranian_Student: the first time we talked Iranian_Student: I have read a bit of it..copied it all Iranian_Student: it is interesting yes Sitaram: http://www.csulb.edu/~bhfinney/SalmanRushdie.html Iranian_Student: oh thank you Sitaram: this is an interesting overview of Rushdie Sitaram: but I still have to find the novel Iranian_Student: yes please give me the add when you are home Iranian_Student: tell me some other authors name Sitaram: hmmm.... let me think Iranian_Student: yes Sitaram: The Lathe of Heaven by Ursula LeGuinn Iranian_Student: it shouldn’t be too religious Sitaram: kind of scifi fantasy, but already stock in classic sections... Sitaram: about a man who has a rare give of "effective dreams".... whatever he dreams permanently alters reality... Sitaram: and a scientist who attempts to use that mans power to "make the world right"... Iranian_Student: I don’t like fantasy books Sitaram: but... only succeeds in making the world worse and worse, and almost destroying it Sitaram: ok... Sitaram: how about Kurt Vonnegut, "The Cats Cradle" Iranian_Student: oh I dont know him Iranian_Student: its a novel Iranian_Student: ? Sitaram: phone call Iranian_Student: Sitaram: hold on Sitaram: Cats Cradle is neat.. BECAUSE.. he starts off saying "Call me Jonah"... Sitaram: which is a take off on Moby Dick..."Call me Ishmael" Iranian_Student: Sitaram: so, in one fell swoop.... he sets the state with biblical, mellvillian, and also islamic dynamics... (since we know who Ishmael is) Sitaram: Hagars son Iranian_Student: oh Sitaram: Hemingway, "Old Man and the Sea" is a short read... and wonderful... nothing else like it Iranian_Student: yes Sitaram: Virginia Woolf (sp?) Orlando... is very important Iranian_Student: I am reading her..the waves Iranian_Student: so poetic..I love it Sitaram: her husband purchased for her a typesetting machine (printing press) which fit on their kitchen table, and she started a press which published T.S. Eliots "The Wasteland" Sitaram: no other publisher would touch it Iranian_Student: oh Iranian_Student: Iranian_Student: I didnt know! Iranian_Student: thats interesting Sitaram: oh... I have two books you would ABSOLUTELY LOVE.... both by the same company... each is an encyclopedia A TO Z , of Virginia W... and James Joyce Iranian_Student: you know kierkegaard? Sitaram: with every little tidbit and trivia... like that one about the printing press Iranian_Student: oh? Sitaram: yes.... Kierkegaard, fear and trembling, Either/Or Sitaram: they were on sale for $20 each.... when list price was $60 Sitaram: Joyce and Woolf are two landmark, watershed writers , in the transition to postmodernism Sitaram: I just made that up, but it sounds accurate Iranian_Student: what is the books name Sitaram: Tristram Shandy by Laurence Sterne (circa 1750) is thought to be the first postmodernist novel Sitaram: those two books are literally entitled "A to Z Encyclopedia of Virginial Woolf..... James Joyce" Iranian_Student: oh I hope I could find that Sitaram: oh... and in the 1920's and 30s here... the controversy about censorship.... started by Joyce's Ulysses Iranian_Student: yes you know ulysses is forbidden here Sitaram: two women in new england were publishing it as a series in a magazine...and they were arrested Iranian_Student: its translation at least Iranian_Student: ah Sitaram: but... you see... the scene which caused the arresst is considered so innocent nowadays Sitaram: a man and woman are watching a fireworks display Iranian_Student: whats wrong with that? Sitaram: the woman keeps leaning further and further back, to watch the roman rocket Sitaram: and as she does... the man can peek further and further up her dress... Iranian_Student: haha Sitaram: it is simply a sensual fantasy description... Sitaram: today.. no one would think twice about it... Iranian_Student: theyt fobid it because og this scene? Sitaram: but...listen.... let me give you a prime example from Victorian age... Freud... Sitaram: Freud wrote 1500 letters to his fiance before marriage Sitaram: and they are preserved in his archives Iranian_Student: wow Iranian_Student: 1500! Sitaram: ... in one letter... he made some casual mention of her legs,... regarding clothing.... Sitaram: but THEN, he apologizes and hopes he has not OFFENDED her by mentioning her legs Iranian_Student: oh Sitaram: in those days, it was taboo for a male to mention a ladies legs.... even I suppose if you were engaged Iranian_Student: interesting Iranian_Student: how morals change so fast Sitaram: some ambassador wanted to present a gift to the Queen of Spain of special silk stockings... Sitaram: and inquired about her size... Sitaram: the reply came back "The Queen of Spain HAS no legs" Iranian_Student: haha Sitaram: meaning... don’t talk about that... Sitaram: and... get this... regarding Mohandas Gandhi... Sitaram: in India in 1840's... it was the custom to marry children at age 6, in an arranged marriage Iranian_Student: ah Iranian_Student: 6!!! Sitaram: Gandhi had been arranged to TWO OTHER girls, who died... Sitaram: because child mortality was very high Iranian_Student: oh yes Sitaram: well, Gandhi speaks of this in his autobiography... Sitaram: he said that all he understood was that there would be a party, he would have new clothes, nice food to eat, and this new little girl would come to the family, to play with Iranian_Student: ah terrible Sitaram: well.. when he was 13... his uncle took him aside and said, "Now you must begin to seep in the same room with your wife" Iranian_Student: oh god Sitaram: and the uncle explained what he was to do (sexual intercourse)... Iranian_Student: unbelievable Sitaram: well.... Gandhi said that all his life, he wondered WHO it was that gave the same talk to his wife Kasturbai Sitaram: BUT he was always too embarrassed to ask her Sitaram: he never found out... Sitaram: they were married for something like 60 years when she died Iranian_Student: ah Sitaram: but...after the revolution in Iran, the marriage age was LOWERED from 15 to 9 for girls... because that was the age of Aiyesha Sitaram: when she married Muhammed... Iranian_Student: Iranian_Student: now its again 15 Sitaram: I asked one friend in Iran if he ever saw a nine year old bride... Sitaram: he was the engineer in Tehran Iranian_Student: but 15 is also very low Sitaram: he said... in tehran.. you only see age 15 bride... BUT.. in the very remote areas... the nomadic people.. you will see age 9 Sitaram: now... wait. .. .Mohammed took Ayesha as wife at age 6, but, had sex with her at age 9... according to Hadith Sitaram: it mentions that she was still playing with dolls Iranian_Student: yes Sitaram: these are historical facts Iranian_Student: also a 15 year old girl what she knows about life? Iranian_Student: I didnt know about such things till I entered medical school!!!! Sitaram: Gandhi said that child marriage was a monstrous practice, and it was outlawed before 1900 Iranian_Student: yes it is horrible Sitaram: but... Gandhi in his autobiography also stated that, two innocent youths , he and his wife, were suddenly cast upon a sea of blissful ecstasy Sitaram: after all, sex is an extreme pleasure, and intoxicating, and addictive... especially at age 13 Iranian_Student: I don’t think its proper in that age Sitaram: but... Gandhi felt it was wrong, harmful, even though he himself experienced it... Sitaram: when he went to study in England, with many other boys, age 18.... he already had 3 children... as did the other students from india Iranian_Student: oh you see Sitaram: the british did not realize that these 18 year old boys were married with children... Iranian_Student: a boy of 18 with 3 children!!! Iranian_Student: what shall become of those poor children Sitaram: some of those boys had affairs and sexual adventures in england, and hid the fact that they were married with children Iranian_Student: they are victims of stupid customs Iranian_Student: Sitaram: but... you see... the social system was such that everything was arranged by families (adults)... and the young brides and husbands were cared for, as well as their infants.... Sitaram: so.. as a system, it did work in a way that would not happen now.. Sitaram: since they were primitive agrarian farm societies... Sitaram: one cannot really compare it to today’s events Iranian_Student: but now in America you see that young adolescents have sexual relations Sitaram: actually, on a farm, small children become useful, necessary... to accomplish all the chorse Sitaram: well.. you see , what happens in america, with the promiscuous sex,... cannot be compared with india in the 1840s, and child marriages such as Gandhi Iranian_Student: true Sitaram: for Gandhi, the children were simply told what to do, and obeyed.... and did not have time to think of naughty things Iranian_Student: but well compare it with the time when men couldnt mention about legs!! Iranian_Student: yes Sitaram: but... you see my point... Gandhi would never bring himself to ask his wife who had given her sexual advice Sitaram: now.. the children compare notes about sex positions and practices... Sitaram: freud was hesitant to mention legs to his fiancee Sitaram: so... times have really changed... times and values Iranian_Student: true Iranian_Student: I can not say its better now or it was better before both seem to have problems Sitaram: back in a minute Iranian_Student: am afraid I must go now my mother wants me to translate a movie for her Iranian_Student: it was nice meeting you here again....thank you for sharing your time......... Sitaram: thanks for interesting chat Iranian_Student: thank you! Sitaram: cross cultural enlightenment |