Archive for literarydiscussions.myfreeforum.org Literature, Poetry, Essays, Dialogues, Philosophy, Theology          literarydiscussions.myfreeforum.org Forum Index -> Feature: Salman Rushdie, Mark Twain, & Iconoclasm Sitaram Why is Salman Rushdie So Despised in Islamic Countries? One advantage to being Admin of your own forum is that you can create whatever you like (within reason). Today, it occured to me that one might compare Salman Rushdie to Mark Twain (Samuel Clemens) in the sense that both authors are iconoclastic in their attacks upon those things held sacred by culture and society. URLs regarding Mark Twain as Iconoclast: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/autho...rner/jan-june97/fishkin_4-11.html wrote: A question from Ervin S. Duggan of Alexandria, VA: Mark Twain springs from what might seem to many rather ordinary soil: Protestant Midwestern America. Yet he became a religious skeptic, an iconoclast (albeit with a sense of humor) and an enemy of slavery and racism. What shaping influences, in your judgment, turned Twain's mind so decisively away from the conventional and toward the unconventional--- away from the ordinary and toward the extraordinary? Shelley Fisher Fishkin responds: What an intriguing set of questions! First, some comments on the issue of Twain's religious skepticism: Clemens tells us that his first schoolteacher told him that if he prayed sincerely, his prayers would be answered. When young Sam Clemens prayed and his prayers didn't get answered, doubt began to set in. Indeed, later in life he would atribute to that early experience his conviction that Christianity and all religions are "lies and swindles." His mother and other members of his family sampled a variety of religious denominations during his youth, perhaps giving him further reason to doubt any one sect's assertions of its superiority over another. His first trip to Europe helped hone his skepticism about the contributions the Catholic church had made to civilization (imposing cathedrals did not, in Twain's view, justify the suffering imposed in the name of religion in European history). And when he married into the Langdon family, and learned the story of his father-in-law's founding of a new church in Elmira when his old congregation refused to condemn slavery, Twain must have recalled with some confusion the sermons he had heard in church throughout his childhood asserting that slavery was a system ordained by God. SFG75 Excellent post Sitaram!. Twain was indeed a radical by every sense of the term. People like to view him as someone who wrote Huckleberry Finn and who stayed in bed around the clock, chain smoking his cheap cigars. In all reality, he did push the envelope and was very socially conscious. THe same thing could be said of Helen Keller who was a rabid socialist during her time. Of course, we don't like to focus on things like that. Many intellectuals are ahead of their own time in terms of their political/social opinions. He wrote this "prayer" in response to the Spanish-American war. It was rejected twice for publication in our 1st amendment loving nation that we live in. Quote: The War Prayer by Mark Twain It was a time of great and exalting excitement. The country was up in arms, the war was on, in every breast burned the holy fire of patriotism; the drums were beating, the bands playing, the toy pistols popping, the bunched firecrackers hissing and spluttering; on every hand and far down the receding and fading spread of roofs and balconies a fluttering wilderness of flags flashed in the sun; daily the young volunteers marched down the wide avenue gay and fine in their new uniforms, the proud fathers and mothers and sisters and sweethearts cheering them with voices choked with happy emotion as they swung by; nightly the packed mass meetings listened, panting, to patriot oratory which stirred the deepest deeps of their hearts, and which they interrupted at briefest intervals with cyclones of applause, the tears running down their cheeks the while; in the churches the pastors preached devotion to flag and country, and invoked the God of Battles beseeching His aid in our good cause in outpourings of fervid eloquence which moved every listener. It was indeed a glad and gracious time, and the half dozen rash spirits that ventured to disapprove of the war and cast a doubt upon its righteousness straightway got such a stern and angry warning that for their personal safety's sake they quickly shrank out of sight and offended no more in that way. Sunday morning came -- next day the battalions would leave for the front; the church was filled; the volunteers were there, their young faces alight with martial dreams -- visions of the stern advance, the gathering momentum, the rushing charge, the flashing sabers, the flight of the foe, the tumult, the enveloping smoke, the fierce pursuit, the surrender! Then home from the war, bronzed heroes, welcomed, adored, submerged in golden seas of glory! With the volunteers sat their dear ones, proud, happy, and envied by the neighbors and friends who had no sons and brothers to send forth to the field of honor, there to win for the flag, or, failing, die the noblest of noble deaths. The service proceeded; a war chapter from the Old Testament was read; the first prayer was said; it was followed by an organ burst that shook the building, and with one impulse the house rose, with glowing eyes and beating hearts, and poured out that tremendous invocation *God the all-terrible! Thou who ordainest! Thunder thy clarion and lightning thy sword!* Then came the "long" prayer. None could remember the like of it for passionate pleading and moving and beautiful language. The burden of its supplication was, that an ever-merciful and benignant Father of us all would watch over our noble young soldiers, and aid, comfort, and encourage them in their patriotic work; bless them, shield them in the day of battle and the hour of peril, bear them in His mighty hand, make them strong and confident, invincible in the bloody onset; help them to crush the foe, grant to them and to their flag and country imperishable honor and glory -- An aged stranger entered and moved with slow and noiseless step up the main aisle, his eyes fixed upon the minister, his long body clothed in a robe that reached to his feet, his head bare, his white hair descending in a frothy cataract to his shoulders, his seamy face unnaturally pale, pale even to ghastliness. With all eyes following him and wondering, he made his silent way; without pausing, he ascended to the preacher's side and stood there waiting. With shut lids the preacher, unconscious of his presence, continued with his moving prayer, and at last finished it with the words, uttered in fervent appeal, "Bless our arms, grant us the victory, O Lord our God, Father and Protector of our land and flag!" The stranger touched his arm, motioned him to step aside -- which the startled minister did -- and took his place. During some moments he surveyed the spellbound audience with solemn eyes, in which burned an uncanny light; then in a deep voice he said: "I come from the Throne -- bearing a message from Almighty God!" The words smote the house with a shock; if the stranger perceived it he gave no attention. "He has heard the prayer of His servant your shepherd, and will grant it if such shall be your desire after I, His messenger, shall have explained to you its import -- that is to say, its full import. For it is like unto many of the prayers of men, in that it asks for more than he who utters it is aware of -- except he pause and think. "God's servant and yours has prayed his prayer. Has he paused and taken thought? Is it one prayer? No, it is two -- one uttered, the other not. Both have reached the ear of Him Who heareth all supplications, the spoken and the unspoken. Ponder this -- keep it in mind. If you would beseech a blessing upon yourself, beware! lest without intent you invoke a curse upon a neighbor at the same time. If you pray for the blessing of rain upon your crop which needs it, by that act you are possibly praying for a curse upon some neighbor's crop which may not need rain and can be injured by it. "You have heard your servant's prayer -- the uttered part of it. I am commissioned of God to put into words the other part of it -- that part which the pastor -- and also you in your hearts -- fervently prayed silently. And ignorantly and unthinkingly? God grant that it was so! You heard these words: 'Grant us the victory, O Lord our God!' That is sufficient. the *whole* of the uttered prayer is compact into those pregnant words. Elaborations were not necessary. When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for many unmentioned results which follow victory--*must* follow it, cannot help but follow it. Upon the listening spirit of God fell also the unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. Listen! "O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle -- be Thou near them! With them -- in spirit -- we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it -- for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen. (*After a pause.*) "Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak! The messenger of the Most High waits!" It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. bloaaple Salman Rushdi is not universal in his thoughts, lack harmony DEAR FRIENDS Salman Rushdi no doubt enjoys a very high position amony literary figurs and he is a calibre writer famous for his novels in which he tries to depict the human society fighting for faith and religions. He beautifully colored his language by using colored statements and colored language about his characters. but question arises in the mind ofsimple and lay man why he is not enjoying that position in asia, and particularely in the south asia and muslim world. There may be many reasons for his obscure position in this part of world. Although he got fame and popularity in europe because his ideas and thoughts are new for european and americans and secondly he did not attack thier religions even. But he severely attacked his own religion with writing "Satanic Verses" But strongly believe in humanitic but his approach toward humanity is not favoured in east. Because his rivals do believe that all religions teach good things and that is why he has no right to attack any religion as all religions are the offshoots of same three. But here keeping aside the religion discussion ,we must diagnose the reason why Salman is not favoured in Asia and why he not succeed in making ways in asian writer like tolstoy, wordsworth hemminway. the truth is that his ideas are othordox for asain reader, there is too much repeatation in his works. and almost all asian are familiar with such stories which he wrote. for instance his recent novel "Fear" is about indian Kashmir muslim girl and hindu girl who marry wiith out caring for religion. This is very common in this part of world specailly South Asia.so there is novelty for us . He simple to make an utopian world which in not possible in this realitic world. Secondly is the reason unpopularity among muslims and they are not ready to read him. So he lost 1000 million readers. SO it is time to include such alarge population in reading his book that is why he should read a book about how to bring harmony among nations through religion. thanks ----- Name Ajab khan Sheikh PESHAWAR AND PAKISTAN note i am new writer and new one i need maximum feed back thanks for u help [b][/b] Sitaram Per your request, I am editing a copy of your post http://literarydiscussions.myfreeforum.org/ftopic664.php aborym Well, as a person who lives in the same country where the fatwa was issued for Salman Rushide, I can assure you that Muslim countries reject Rushdie because almost all of them have not even read the novel and following others blindly is one of the main principles in Islam. Hence one should not care much for their rejection. What really matters is that Rushdie is really a great writer and he has added much to the World Literature. bloaaple to friend in tehran, ,,,,,,salman rashidee U are right friend from Tehran,,,,,,,,,,,, Salman Rashidee is the towering personality in the realm of literature but he could not find muslim reader for his work.Because muslim like christain jews follow their religion blindly i am talking about staunch believer of any religion as we should not ignore the fact that " faith is the substance of thing hoped for the evidence of thing not seen. Salman neglect the whole muslim community by denying the prophet of muslim. If u want to bring harmony , always looks for similiarities among religion , and culture and tradition. I have not studied any Salman book being optimistic towards every one but i feel he may a great writer but no a great man, thanks Rachel i think there are many dynamics to the question of salman's unpopularity in islam. from what i have researched concerning Mohammed there was a time when he himself thought he was possessed by demons and did not believe at all that he heard from God. then at some point he did. The satanic verses he ascribed completely to God and then said he was tricked by satan. He was a very forceful man and once he said something it was law and really it was worth the person's life to disagree. I read that a woman poet who composed something in criticism of him was nursing her baby when one of Mohanned's men came and ripped the baby from her and she was murdered. it was scarey to go against him. Added to that the fact that from the moment baby is born it is normal for papa to whisper that God is great and Mohammed his prophet. And everything flows from this. So if someone with the power of fatwa says Salman is evil and what he did is evil who is anyone to go against it. Perhaps there are many who genuinely agree that anything written in question of or criticism of anything established in Islam is evil. But perhaps many secretly would like to read the books and actually give a positive opinion but dare not. it is just a thought. In the Bible God, who always has someone criticize and hate him did two remarkable things. When His own people rejected him and infuriated and grieved the then prophet because they wanted to be like the other nations and have a physical representative on earth, a king, God said for them to be allowed to do so. And in the Holy Scriptures He says this to all of us "come let us reason together.... He is not afraid of criticism or debate. I admire salman, but i also understand and respect if others cannot for whatever reasons. we do not walk in their shoes. Sitaram Excellent points! Good reasonable reply. I agree. Thanks for posting! bloaaple MY RELIGION , U RELIGION THEOLOGY , RESPONSE The answer of one the basic question regarding Prophet Muhammad (S.W) regarding religion , i think that religion is the worship of love, as i personally believe that almost all religions teach love and affectation and nothing else, there is no evil design in any religion, i am much concerned to Christainity , Judaism, and Islam, and specially i will foucs on Islam, my birth religion, as i know much about my own religion being preached in my country. There are miracles in all religions and recently a miracle happened when a child born in christain family uttered the whole Koran by heart at the age of one year. Miracles happen very rare in the era of super technology . The child from Nigeria has uttered the whole Quran with looking to orginal printed copy and he is the icon for modern people who stop believing the religion. Thousands of miracles happen with other religious group so one can not say that religion is myth and secondly there must be in religion tht thousand million Muslims m are following and same way there must be in Hindiusm, Christainity and Judaism because masses are following the doctrines of thosre religions in thier life. ReFERENCT O THE LETTER NOW , Muhammad have not married stepson'wife, please do not misinterpret the reality as it may damage the ruputation of any religion. He married the wife of his slave, Zainab as she was not satisfied with her husband and it was his slave Zaid who offered Muhammad to marry his wife after divorce and secondly it is true that he believed in no discriminatiion of slave and free man annd that is why Muhammad has given the respect of a son. he was his own son. or the son of any of his wife. Thirdly , Islam for the time stated that all men are equal there in no discrimination between white and black , rich and poor . Now look to the world histroy and u will see the glimpses of Islam in tht events , King Martin Luther , the Nobel winner for peace has actually support hs idea from islam as it is islam which fades away the difference between black and white some 15 hundred years age. Communism HAS ITS ROOT IN ISLAM ALSO. SOCIALISM HAS ROOT IN ISLAM ALSO . Capitalism has roots in islam as Islam suggest different system in different time and different place. Islam does believe in Democrary, Simply i want to say that fault and shortcommings are not in relgions but in people who try to adopt it in their own way. And one thing more please read more book while pasting u own articles as misconceptions create only choas and no harmony . we are here to bring harmony not chaos we are here to bridge east and west , north and south not to polorize them. so please avoid such materail which bring only chaos , . as our criticism should not for the sake of criticism but for the sake of reformation humanity . We are not living in Sir Thomas Moore 'utopian world as we know that we can not adjust our religion to our modern era of science but it reminds me Abert Einstein famous quotation. "Science without religion is lamb and religion with out science is blind", "In all form of soveritude the intectual is most degraded " Homer says as now it is happening with Muslim World they are intecutual slaves , once the Europe called Dark Ages was the bright time for Muslim World. Time heals the wounds may be future there may be no religious bias and discrimination among people. This is my own views u may condrict with my opinion but fact i presented before u people are true and well athentic. I need u feedback thanks Ajab Khan Sheikh Peshawar , Pakistana Rachel DEAR BLOAAPLE, Very interesting about the baby in the Christian family. Can you tell me the baby's name and which city he/she is in and any proof that the media have or whatever that this actually happened. I would be very interested and appreciate your kindness bloaaple response to u letter YA , Regarding u question , it is true that child has acquired Holy Koran by heart. Media has given that child maximum coverage , CD and autio tape of that child is available. I have seen that child and he is negro one borned in christain family nutured in muslim family. In two three days i wil give u full detail, but is truee as i am witness of another childern by himself who learned holy quran even he was dump one , he can not speak but he can only utter quran verses . i have seen that one in university and he was from Ruplic of Iran. i do not believe in supernatiional things being more realistic but stiil i am witness of that . and it is reality and there wil other thousand miracles in other religions also. even the copy of autio casette may be also available in U state but he has not learned from some one. Genetical scientists may explain it more detail . thanks ajab kkhan sheikh [pakistan Sitaram Correction: LAME , not LAMB You wrote: "Science without religion is lamb and religion with out science is blind", a "lamb" is a young new born sheep. What you meant to write is LAME, meaning, crippled in the leg, walking with a limp. bloaaple correction sory i am mean lame... not lamp or limp        literarydiscussions.myfreeforum.org Forum Index -> Feature: Salman Rushdie, Mark Twain, & Iconoclasm Page 1 of 1

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