literarydiscussions.myfreeforum.org

Sitaram · Site Admin Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 1079

Session Start (Sitaram:Iranian_MD): Wed Aug 02 07:07:03 2006
[07:07] Iranian_MD: you are awake?
[07:08] Sitaram: You should read what I wrote just now
[07:08] Sitaram: I should paste it here, little by little (not long)

[07:09] Sitaram: Last night, as I slept, I had a disturbing dream, in which
there was a widespread economic collapse. I was in the TIME MAGAZINE
building, in the dream, and everyone had lost their jobs, and they were
quite upset and clearing out their desks. And in the dream, other
companies were also collapsing. Confused and agitated crowds roamed
the streets.

[07:09] Sitaram: I suppose I have been seeing some discouraging things
in the news lately that prompted such a dream

[07:10] Iranian_MD: oh strange dream..what it might mean/>

[07:10] Sitaram: Last night, before going to bed, I saw the photo here of
all the hundreds of women lined up in the masjid, row after row, with the
title "Religion of Justice" and I found it depressing. The post asked for
opinions, reactions. Honestly, it reminded me of photos of crowds and
marching in Germany under the 3rd Reich (Hitler). I thought of the
tragedy of such conformity, such loss of individuality and creativity. I did
not post anything there, because it would only be hurtful. At least, if I only
post here, then only those who choose to come and read will see.

[07:10] Sitaram: (this post is at progressiveislam.org

[07:10] Sitaram: they had a photo of hundreds of women, lined up, in
white, in huge mosque

[07:10] Sitaram: For me, if anything at all is the religion of justice, then it
is secular constitutional democracy. Perhaps in the 7th century Islam was
a form of order and justice in contrast to the chaos and barbarism which
preceded it, but I do not think it measures up to justice by todays
standards, not in my mind at any rate.

[07:10] Sitaram: This morning, right after I awakened, I had the thought
that if the whole world were mesmerized with wearing beards and sheets
and bowing down to the ground, then there would not be a modern world.
I tried such things myself in my 20's , in the Greek monastery. Lots of
robes and beards and bowing down on one's knees.

[07:11] Sitaram: The high point of evolution, in my mind, is when
anthropoids first got off of all fours and stood erect. To me, that was the
first progress. Getting back down on all fours seems reactionary.

[07:11] Sitaram: That documentary last night, Flying to Kabul was
depressing. I thought the young woman would become a pilot and have
an interesting career. Instead, she just SUBMITTED to the will of her
uncle, to stay in her robes, and prepare his meals, and gaze out the dingy
window occasionaly, towards a life which might have been.

[07:11] Sitaram: Two months ago, I spent a lot of time reading John
Barth's non-fiction, in a volume entitled "Further Fridays". For much of his
academic career, John Barth reserved the Friday of each week for
non-fiction writing. Some of those writings were speeches or addresses
given at various colleges and universities, and at symposiums. In one
essay, he mentioned that some Islamic scholar had stated "If a book
agrees with the Qur'an then it is redundant and unnecessary, and if it
does not agree with the Qur'an then it is blasphemous and should be
burned" (paraphrasing from my memory.)

[07:11] Sitaram: end of blog post

[07:12] Iranian_MD: :)

[07:12] Sitaram: so, i posted that at my blog at progressiveislam.org
[07:12] Sitaram: and also, at myspace

[07:14] Iranian_MD: you are still full of rage ..thats not the way you could
change things the way they are

[07:14] Iranian_MD: but I know what you mean by losing individuality etc

[07:14] Sitaram: oh, really , come on
[07:15] Sitaram: that is not the voice of rage, but simply my common sense reactions

[07:15] Iranian_MD: its interesting I agree with you

[07:16] Sitaram: you know, Azar Nafisi quoted something from someone
who said "When you feel uncomfortable IN YOUR OWN HOME... THEN that
is religious oppression

[07:16] Sitaram: or something like that

[07:16] Sitaram: so, I must feel unfomfortable expressing my own
thoughts in what should be my private blog

[07:16] Iranian_MD: why?
[07:16] Iranian_MD: you shouldnt

[07:17] Sitaram: yes, but people ARE made to feel uncomfortable
[07:17] Sitaram: being themselves
[07:17] Sitaram: even in USA

[07:17] Iranian_MD: who says so?

[07:17] Sitaram: one woman replied to my myspace blog on agnosticism
[07:17] Sitaram: saying that she identifies with this, but does not feel free
to express herself

[07:17] Iranian_MD: why not?

[07:17] Sitaram: because of social pressures, like in work place

[07:18] Iranian_MD: well its stupid

[07:18] Sitaram: because, then you become branded as a communist or
homosexual, or liberal or whatever

[07:18] Iranian_MD: I express my feelings here......I dont care what
people think

[07:18] Sitaram: and you wind up with smaller cookies on your lunch tray
[07:18] Sitaram: so, you are probably branded as something in their minds

[07:19] Iranian_MD: I dont mind

[07:19] Sitaram: you may one day be passed over for some promotion
[07:19] Sitaram: because you are seen as malcontent
[07:19] Sitaram: and troublemaker

[07:19] Iranian_MD: promotion in my mind is brinmg free to express
thoughts

[07:19] Sitaram: yes, i know, but the branding is real
[07:19] Sitaram: and has real consequences

[07:20] Sitaram: for me, condolezza rice is like wonderwoman,.... but because she is woman and black, nothing she can do is enough
[07:20] Iranian_MD: well one should be intelligent not to waste time on
narrow minds

[07:20] Iranian_MD: what you mean by wonderwoman?
[07:20] Iranian_MD: you like her?

[07:20] Sitaram: like superman, with red cape

[07:21] Sitaram: well... look... it does not matter WHAT her politics are

[07:21] Iranian_MD: really?

[07:21] Sitaram: she plays piano, exercises two hours per day
[07:21] Sitaram: and, is very bright

[07:21] Iranian_MD: so what
[07:21] Iranian_MD: come on

[07:21] Sitaram: and achieved a position of power

[07:21] Sitaram: BUT 100 YEARS AGO SHE WOULD BE A N!GG@R WOMAN MOPING TOILETS
[07:21] Sitaram: dont you get it
[07:22] Sitaram: things change, improve
[07:22] Sitaram: my friend in pakistan hates rice's politics, yet admires her as a person

[07:22] Sitaram: what do you dislike about condolezza
[07:22] Sitaram: since we are on the subject

[07:22] Iranian_MD: I dont admire a person who follows right ideas

[07:22] Sitaram: so, lets be specific

[07:23] Iranian_MD: wrong sorry

[07:23] Iranian_MD: oh well I can notr tell..........am not interested in politics

[07:23] Sitaram: really, seriously, what do you dislike

[07:23] Iranian_MD: and political talks

[07:23] Sitaram: oh , common, that is cop-out...
[07:23] Sitaram: you imply that you hate her for wrong ideas

[07:23] Iranian_MD: I didnt
[07:23] Sitaram: so, what are those wrong ideas
[07:23] Sitaram: in a nutshell

[07:24] Iranian_MD: it was your sentence that I didnt afree with

[07:24] Sitaram: i admire her because she is strong, successful, because i could not be what she is (ideas right or wrong)
[07:24] Sitaram: which sentence
[07:24] Sitaram: she is an over-achiever

[07:25] Iranian_MD: I mean for a politician her way of thinking matter more than plaing piano or doing exercise

[07:25] Sitaram: and that disspells the stereotypes of blacks and women as inferior
[07:25] Sitaram: well, i want you to summarize what is bad about her politics

[07:25] Iranian_MD: I dont see her as black or as woman just as a human

[07:25] Sitaram: but i live in a culture which stepped upon blacks and women for centuries
[07:26] Sitaram: and your culture STILL steps on women

[07:26] Iranian_MD: yes I know

[07:26] Sitaram: and you dont even HAVE any blacks to step on
[07:26] Sitaram: so, come on, summarize some bad things about condolezzas politics and ideology

[07:26] Iranian_MD: yes we have some horrible women in the parliament but it doesnt mean we have improved

[07:27] Sitaram: oh, by the way, my wifes nephrologist, i asked him about stem cell, his opinion, and he says we should be going full blast on research

[07:27] Sitaram: but, he calls himself an atheist.

[07:28] Sitaram: what is bad about condolezza, aside from the fact that she ranks high in the nation of the great satan

[07:28] Iranian_MD: :)

[07:28] Sitaram: oh.... listen... last night on pbs educational tv
[07:28] Sitaram: they mentioned usa mistakes in Iraq
[07:29] Sitaram: and, it mentioned these us soldiers, who would catch looters...
[07:29] Sitaram: they caught a father and two sons looting
[07:29] Sitaram: and they wanted to figure out on their own how to stop looters
[07:29] Sitaram: so, they decided that if they could make them cry (weep) that might stop them

[07:29] Iranian_MD: haha

[07:29] Sitaram: so, they said to the father,..... We have caught you looting, so you must choose which of your sons we will shoot
[07:30] Sitaram: so, the father says "Oh, no shoot me"
[07:30] Sitaram: so the soldiers said,... "That is not a choice offered to you"
[07:30] Sitaram: so, then they grab one boy, take him behind a truck, and fire their weapon...
[07:30] Sitaram: pretending that he is shot...
[07:30] Iranian_MD: oh
[07:30] Sitaram: so, of course, everyone is crying, father and other son
[07:31] Sitaram: now, television show made point that such actions on part of low ranking soldiers is a mistake
[07:31] Sitaram: because it increases hatred of americans
[07:31] Sitaram: but... it got me to thinking...
[07:32] Sitaram: WHAT IF, when they caught the looters, the american soldiers first asked them ARE YOU MUSLIM
[07:32] Sitaram: then, of course, they answer OH YES
[07:32] Sitaram: so then, soldiers open copy of Qur'an to passage about thieves
[07:32] Sitaram: oh wait, first they ask WERE YOU STEALING
[07:32] Sitaram: and perhaps they say YES WE ARE GUILTY
[07:33] Iranian_MD: ok I see what you mean
[07:33] Sitaram: but THEN soldiers open a quran to passage about cutting off the hand of the thief

[07:33] Iranian_MD: but both acts are inhuman

[07:33] Sitaram: and they say, Well, you admit to stealing
[07:33] Sitaram: and you admit to being Muslim
[07:33] Sitaram: and this is your sacred Qur'an
[07:33] Sitaram: and it says that your hand must be cut off.
[07:33] Sitaram: so, then, they take the two sons, and strap their hand to something...

[07:34] Iranian_MD: you dont understand how peoples mind work...they are really truely stupid sometimes

[07:34] Sitaram: and hand knife to the father, and say.... you must now cut off the hand

[07:34] Iranian_MD: you sound like hitler or something

[07:34] Sitaram: BUT I MEAN, HOW COULD ANY MUSLIM REALLY COMPLAIN about such a thing

[07:34] Sitaram: NO, it is Muhammed who was a hitler
[07:34] Sitaram: i am just emphasizing how monstrous the quran is

[07:35] Iranian_MD: you dont consider time period

[07:35] Sitaram: but, really, it is an islamic land

[07:35] Iranian_MD: it was a barbaric time then

[07:35] Sitaram: and here are three people caught in the act of stealing
[07:35] Sitaram: but, it is the will of Allah

[07:35] Iranian_MD: so cutting hands were natural perhaps I dont know

[07:35] Sitaram: perfect, special for his people,.... never to be changed
[07:35] Sitaram: so, how can the iraqis complain, if the americans obey the quranic law
[07:36] Sitaram: the quran does not get very specific

[07:36] Iranian_MD: I mean in a society some people are good because they are scared of puinishment

[07:36] Sitaram: i mean, the quran does not say there should be a trial,... or that muslims only have the right to execute the punishments

[07:36] Iranian_MD: why you discuss this to me

[07:37] Sitaram: i mean, in theory, you might complain about what the soldiers did, making them cry by pretending to shoot the boy

[07:37] Iranian_MD: you know how many times we discussed such thing

[07:37] Sitaram: well, who else do i have to discuss
[07:37] Sitaram: noooo... this is in the news
[07:37] Sitaram: last night
[07:37] Sitaram: it is current events
[07:37] Sitaram: and, it is in my mind... and i want to discuss at progressiveislam.org

[07:37] Iranian_MD: yes but I dont see your point...are you trying to find excuse for their act

[07:38] Sitaram: nooooo, i am trying to underscore how monstrous islam and the quran is

[07:38] Iranian_MD: even if they do the thing which seems logicl in their mind because its what they believe in I find it inhuman
[07:38] Iranian_MD: I know how it is

[07:38] Sitaram: that, in reality, everyone is trying to reform it
[07:38] Sitaram: and to be progressive

[07:38] Iranian_MD: its good isnt it?
[07:38] Sitaram: this website does not want to use word REFORM
[07:38] Sitaram: so, they use word progressive

[07:39] Iranian_MD: I mean they should change such barbaric laws

[07:39] Sitaram: because, one cannot speak of reform as CHANGING qur'an

[07:39] Iranian_MD: you call it reform or progrees or what

[07:39] Sitaram: well, certainly, islam itself should be re-designed

[07:39] Iranian_MD: yes

[07:39] Sitaram: but, at the heart and core of islam is the notion that it is unchangeable

[07:39] Iranian_MD: I had a patient the other day.............
[07:39] Iranian_MD: let me talk

[07:39] Sitaram: so.... mr bin laden, if he has a tooth ache, i am sure, he takes novocaine and has a dentist fix the tooth. Yet, the Prophet spoke against intoxication, and never had benefit of dentist or novocain. So, since everyone imitates everything that the Prophet did, how he eats, and dresses, and how he grooms himself, and what he did in toilet, .... so, why not imitate Prophet in his dentistry also?

[07:40] Iranian_MD: here am in gynecology ward now

[07:40] Sitaram: yes

[07:40] Iranian_MD: so women come and give birth to their children
[07:40] Iranian_MD: but because its an edicational hospital they dont let them use that cesarian way
[07:41] Iranian_MD: unless there is a problem or threat to mothers health
[07:41] Iranian_MD: so there was a woman who was diabetic
[07:41] Iranian_MD: and her fetus was so large
[07:41] Iranian_MD: so she couldnt have natural delivery
[07:42] Iranian_MD: we told her we should use section
[07:42] Iranian_MD: but she didnt admit
[07:42] Sitaram: c-section

[07:42] Iranian_MD: I explained 1 hour

[07:42] Sitaram: did not consent

[07:42] Iranian_MD: that her child might suffocate or have serious limb problems

[07:43] Iranian_MD: but she couldnt admit why should this happen to her
[07:43] Iranian_MD: she had two other children already

[07:43] Sitaram: oh, i see, ok

[07:43] Sitaram: they were fine, so why not a third

[07:43] Iranian_MD: and I talked with her husband he was logical
[07:44] Iranian_MD: and tried to persuade her but she wouldnt admit
[07:44] Iranian_MD: at last we all tried and she admited

[07:44] Sitaram: she would not budge an inch
[07:44] Sitaram: admit is bad word, agree is better

[07:44] Iranian_MD: but she didnt let us to put her as a candidate of TL

[07:44] Iranian_MD: agreed ok

[07:44] Sitaram: TL?

[07:45] Iranian_MD: tubal legation...

[07:45] Sitaram: ok

[07:45] Iranian_MD: tubectomy
[07:45] Iranian_MD: wh

[07:45] Sitaram: so, no more babies

[07:45] Iranian_MD: she didnt agree
[07:45] Iranian_MD: although her husband agreed

[07:45] Sitaram: i must praise Iran for being liberal enough to practice tubal ligation in such circumstances

[07:46] Sitaram: they could choose to be far more fundamentalist and rigid, and decree that she must have babies until her uterus falls out as a pleasing offering to Allah.

[07:46] Iranian_MD: I mean some people insist on their wrong ideas
[07:46] Iranian_MD: even if you give them freedom to choose

[07:46] Sitaram: it is like Anthony Trollope's novel "He Knew He Was Right"

[07:46] Iranian_MD: and they are scared

[07:46] Sitaram: yes,... scared, and they think that religion must be clear cut, safe choice
[07:47] Sitaram: they think about pleasing or displeasing god
[07:47] Iranian_MD: yes because they dont want to enter the area of u nnknown
[07:47] Iranian_MD: unknown
[07:47] Sitaram: the fear risk
[07:47] Iranian_MD: when you are not following ..you must think yourself make mistakes take risks
[07:47] Sitaram: so, baby was ok?
[07:47] Iranian_MD: and others might blame you for what you do
[07:48] Iranian_MD: but people dont want to think ...its easier to follow what others did
[07:48] Sitaram: yes.... if you line up with those 1000 other women, in white, in masjid, and bow, they , you are just one of the crowd, and no one can blame you personally
[07:48] Iranian_MD: and not try
[07:48] Sitaram: because, you followed instructions
[07:48] Iranian_MD: yes because you are doing the same thing others do
[07:48] Sitaram: because you submitted
[07:48] Sitaram: surrendered
[07:48] Iranian_MD: yes
[07:48] Sitaram: so, that baby was ok?
[07:49] Iranian_MD: yes that isnt the point
[07:49] Sitaram: but, now, she will be ok.... but will have another baby soon, because tubes not tied
[07:49] Iranian_MD: she didnt even dare to care abt babies health more than hers
[07:49] Sitaram: right....
[07:49] Sitaram: a selfish decision
[07:49] Iranian_MD: and yet she didnt stop having babies
[07:49] Sitaram: well, because it is god's will to have babies
[07:49] Iranian_MD: I mean when you are not courageous enough to do something why you do it several times?
[07:50] Sitaram: never mind that this same god gave us the brains to figure out how to stop having babies
[07:50] Iranian_MD: I feel pitty for children of such stupid mothers
[07:50] Sitaram: well, a pakistani woman told me she wanted to have babies, because, under law, a woman with small children cannot be put in jail or executed
[07:51] Iranian_MD: your american soldiers were as wild and stupid as those muslims
[07:51] Sitaram: i told her that was selfish reason to have kids
[07:51] Iranian_MD: yes
[07:51] Sitaram: oh, and she also said that , in her culture, if you are a woman with no kids, everyone looks down upon you
[07:52] Iranian_MD: I think sometimes its a guilt to have babies when you are not in a situation to give them happiness
[07:52] Sitaram: so, i told her that also was poor reason to have children
[07:52] Iranian_MD: yes
[07:52] Sitaram: i agree
[07:52] Sitaram: i never regret the fact that i had no children of my own
[07:52] Sitaram: i mean, that i sired no child
[07:52] Sitaram: male sires, female bares
[07:52] Iranian_MD: even if I marry one day I might never have children although I adore them
[07:53] Sitaram: i agree
[07:53] Sitaram: it is not good world to bring children into
[07:53] Iranian_MD: I even might become a pediatritian ..because I love children so muc
[07:53] Sitaram: then, you must suffer to see them suffer
[07:53] Iranian_MD: but I think people have children because of selfishness
[07:53] Sitaram: besides, world population too big now
[07:53] Sitaram: world does not need more babies right now
[07:53] Iranian_MD: am suffering enough why should I make one other person suffer as well?
[07:54] Sitaram: i feel the same way that you do
[07:54] Iranian_MD: good
[07:54] Iranian_MD: I must study now
[07:54] Iranian_MD: what time is it there?
[07:54] Sitaram: ok... is computer still a mess
[07:54] Sitaram: 8am in morning
[07:54] Sitaram: what time there
[07:54] Iranian_MD: ok
[07:54] Iranian_MD: 3:30 pm
[07:54] Sitaram: ok
[07:54] Sitaram: i love you and miss you
[07:55] Iranian_MD: :)
[07:55] Iranian_MD: thank you
[07:55] Sitaram: i joined progressiveislam.org out of my love for you
[07:55] Iranian_MD: I just dont believe in american love
[07:55] Sitaram: so, at least, i can make some constructive effort
[07:55] Iranian_MD: I hope you could
[07:55] Sitaram: but, america does not believe in islamic love
[07:55] Iranian_MD: I dont mind
[07:55] Sitaram: so, we make war, not love
[07:56] Sitaram: in 60's the slogan was "make love, not war" for viet nam
[07:56] Iranian_MD: by the way........my friend sent me atlas shrugged yesterday
[07:56] Sitaram: Ayn Rand
[07:56] Iranian_MD: yes
[07:56] Iranian_MD: I have it in my hands now
[07:56] Sitaram: though her philosophy is a rather selfish one
[07:56] Iranian_MD: yes
[07:56] Sitaram: go wash your hands, ha ha
[07:56] Iranian_MD: no I love it
[07:56] Iranian_MD: I like the way she writes
[07:56] Sitaram: tell me, my wife from philippines uses water, and not toilet tissue....
[07:56] Sitaram: that is their practice
[07:57] Sitaram: and in india, water
[07:57] Iranian_MD: yes
[07:57] Iranian_MD: her water as well
[07:57] Sitaram: so... in iran, do they use toilet tissue
[07:57] Iranian_MD: here
[07:57] Sitaram: ok...
[07:57] Iranian_MD: they do but we use water
[07:57] Sitaram: i am recently trying the water method, because tissue is so expensive
[07:57] Sitaram: and it clogs things
[07:57] Iranian_MD: I wonder how I could deal with tissue if I go abraod
[07:57] Sitaram: plus, cheap rough tissue gives me a rash
[07:57] Iranian_MD: :)
[07:58] Sitaram: yes... well, in french countries...
[07:58] Sitaram: they often have bidet
[07:58] Sitaram: to wash such areas
[07:58] Sitaram: bidet is next to toilet
[07:58] Iranian_MD: what is bidet?
[07:58] Sitaram: pronounced BEE=DAY
[07:58] Iranian_MD: haha
[07:58] Sitaram: with emphasis on day
[07:58] Iranian_MD: I know ..you forgot I know french
[07:58] Sitaram: did i spell worng
[07:58] Sitaram: i know you know
[07:59] Sitaram: so you know bee-day
[07:59] Iranian_MD: so I better go to a french country
[07:59] Sitaram: yes, and wash your bum
[07:59] Sitaram: ha ha
[07:59] Iranian_MD: now you must excuse me ...............uncle wiggly
[07:59] Sitaram: ok.... ladybug
[07:59] Iranian_MD: take care............@};-)
[07:59] Sitaram: your computer still bad
[07:59] Sitaram: ?
[07:59] Iranian_MD: no
[07:59] Iranian_MD: he is a good boy
[07:59] Sitaram: how was it fixed
[07:59] Sitaram: did he fix it
[08:00] Iranian_MD: spontaneously
[08:00] Sitaram: little monster
[08:00] Iranian_MD: sometimes its good
[08:00] Iranian_MD: sometimes naughty
[08:00] Sitaram: it is will of Allah ha ha
[08:00] Sitaram: INshalla
[08:00] Iranian_MD: stop it
[08:00] Sitaram: ok
[08:00] Iranian_MD: I dont like it you mock people idea
[08:00] Sitaram: go study
[08:00] Iranian_MD: I might agree with you
[08:01] Iranian_MD: I might see other peoples ideas narrow or stupd
[08:01] Sitaram: go study miss atlas shruggs
[08:01] Iranian_MD: but I dont mock them
[08:01] Iranian_MD: no I must study gynecology
[08:01] Sitaram: i am going now to make love to condolezza
[08:01] Iranian_MD: saturday exam
[08:01] Sitaram: she is waiting for me
[08:01] Iranian_MD: she suits you
[08:01] Sitaram: her time is on a tight budget
[08:01] Iranian_MD: she is after power etc
[08:01] Sitaram: but, she squeezed me in
[08:02] Iranian_MD: dont talk about personal matters here
[08:02] Iranian_MD: haha
[08:02] Sitaram: ha ha
[08:02] Iranian_MD: now be well

Get your own free IRC Chat room