literarydiscussions.myfreeforum.org

Sitaram · Site Admin Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 1079

GustavoMustafa: Your post "My hypothesis why the Gay Comm. is
Pro-Israeli" makes excellent points. I read your posts with interest. I am
reminded of something I read in Jung's autobiographical "Memories,
Dreams, Reflections." He mentions that, during a long stay in Egypt, the
Muslim guide that he employed made it know to Jung that he was open to
sexual activity, if Jung had any interest. It was just a passing remark in
Jung's narrative. A close woman friend of mine, who lives in an Islamic
country, has an interest in males, but also engages in sexual activity with
other women. I imagine that living in a society where the genders are
separated and cloistered leads to more homoerotic activity than might
occur if the same person lived in a society where they are free to date the
opposite sex.

And here is another post I made at http://www.ennisjack.com

I think this is an important issue, both for understanding BBM, and also for
understanding real-life long term relationships, and one that may be
discussed tastefully and discretely.

I was working for a year or so with a man in his 40s who had been gay all
his life. I knew him well enough to ask him various questions which he
was glad to answer. One question was, "In the average longterm
relationship, who does what to whom?" He answered that that there are
rare couples where one is always one role. Then he giggled and said, "For
the majority of couples, each parterner takes turns in all conceivable
roles. Its all so darn much fun, who would want to miss out on any of it!"

He did share with me that one of his early experiences was with a man
who was so forceful, that it caused him to bleed. He made the man stop
and leave. His partner could not understand why he never wanted to see
him again. He sustained such an injury, that for the rest of his life, there
was some tissue that was noticably in the way. Yet he never went to a
doctor for the injury.

I once had occasion to talk to a surgeon who regulary treated problems of
the large intestine. I asked him if, in his practice, he often saw injuries
caused by sexual activity. His face became very somber, and he said,
"Oh, I have seen patients who have literally destroyed themselves."

There was one famous political figure in New York, who died of AIDS
within the past 10 years. I cant remember his name. He wrote a
biography of his life. One point that he made was that he had only once in
his life been the receiver, and it was painful for him, so he never
repeated that experience, but for the rest of his life participated only in
orally. His point was that he did contract AIDS from the oral sex, and
therefore, it is a myth that it cannot be contracted orally. Obviously there
are people who choose for one reason or another, to restrict their sexual
activity to oral practices.

Obviously, people who choose to see Brokeback Mountain, who are not
gay, may be quite ignorant of what takes place in a gay or lesbian
relationship. While strictly speaking, it should not be necessary to have
such an understanding to appreciate the movie, yet still some people may
be curious, and a better understanding of such things may enhance they
enjoyment of the movie and even promote greater tolerance among the
straight community.

You know, I have two cousins, brother and sister, who grew up and lived
all their lives on a dairy farm. The brother is 15 years older than my 58,
and the sister is about 5 years older. She married a man and had a
daughter with him. It was not her first marriage. He was a house and
barn painter by trade, a very manly and personable fellow. But he was
secretly bi-sexual. She live with that secret for years and told no one.
Her husband got into trouble with drugs and alcohol, and got into serious
debt. They divorced, and for spite, he began to flaunt his now openly gay
lifestyle in the small farm town where everyone knew everyone else.
When asked how she had felt during the marriage, she said it was ok as
long as he always came back to her. I asked her brother, my cousin,
how old he was when he realized that there are men who have sex with
other men. He said he did not know that until he was 30, and just could
not understand it.

I recently read a definition of happiness as a HARMONY between and
individual and the circumstances of their day-to-day life. I do not
believe that any of us can really "choose" our sexual orientation. Rather,
sexuality is a mystery, which emerges in the personality as early as age
4 or 5. I know that is when I first became conscious of sexual feelings,
though, in the mid 1950s, no one spoke openly of such things, so
I had no idea what it was that I was experiencing. I thought such
feelings and pleasures were some grand secret known only to me
which no one else had ever experienced. Actually, I wrote about
these early memories and experiences at my website.

Oops! I was all set just now to ramble on some more, but I remember that Laury prefers that I link to my message board, and place the bulk of
comments, so as not to clutter up these threads.

Here are some of my own autobiographical remarks, where I describe my
earliest experiences with sexuality in my childhood:

http://toosmallforsupernova.org/fromtheauthor.htm

and here is an unfinished short story, entitled "Barbershop Quartet" where
I speak about my sexual experiences.

http://literarydiscussions.myfreeforum.org/ftopic120.php

Here is a very sad, touching true life story of a young man's conflict
between his religious life and his sexual orientation:

http://www.pokrov.org/controversial/htmelias.html

I posted this at http://www.ennisjack.com which is devoted to the
discussion of the movie "Brokeback Mountain"

Quote from: jason on Jan 26, 2006, 12:25 AM
What magic there is in the Alexandria Quartet. I've read lots of the
so-good Whitman, but little Cavafy, who lies in a foreign and distant place
from today's Houston.

I shall return to this post and comment on my experiences reading The
Alexandrian Quartet when I was age 16.

For the sake of expediency, I shall quote from some other things I have
written:

http://literarydiscussions.myfree...732.php&highlight=alexandrian

Let me tell you a little story, a true story, about when I was in High
School, and a teacher suggested that I read "The Alexandrian Quartet;
Justine, Balthazar, Mount Olive and Clea" by Lawrence Durrell. Those
novels opened up a whole other world for a 17 year old young man. As I
remember, everything was set in Alexandria, Egypt in the early part of
the 20th century.

The novels were not about religion per se, but did make a few references
to Islam.

You know, I confess to being a dreadful speller. I had to google just now
(the lazy man's dictionary) on Lawrence DuRReLL to avoid spelling his
name incorrectly. I noticed that a movie was made of Justine

I have not seen it but would enjoy seeing it very much since I enjoyed the
books so much as a teenager.

There was one scene which stuck in my mind. I can't remember now
which of the four novels this scene was in, but that’s not important. Durrell
describes some Muslim business men who hire a muzzine to recite for
them various passages from the Qu'ran. Those businessmen weep as they
listen to the beauty of the recitation.

Well, I was most impressed. I decided that I knew absolutely nothing
about Islam or the Qu'ran, but I must go out at once and purchase a
translation and read it cover to cover. I purchased a translation of the
Koran (an alternate spelling popular in the 1940s through 60s) by
Muhammed Marmaduke Pickthall.

Speaking of translations of the Qu'ran, there are so many available on the
Internet for free, that you may read on-line, or download as text, if you
are bound and determined to read through it.

I purchased the Pickthall translation in my Senior year of high school.
That Summer, before I left for St. John's in Annapolis, I sat with a pen in
hand, and read the Qu'ran cover to cover, marking each and every
unfamiliar word, and looking it up in the dictionary. I still have that
original paperback copy.

I am very glad for my experience in reading it, but I must admit that I
was never once brought to tears by the beauty of it. I The real beauty lies
in reading it in the original Arabic, so I am told.

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65 Member Corner / Mountain Cafe / Re: Walt Whitman and C.P. Cavafy on: Jan 26, 2006, 07:18 AM
Quote from: jason on Jan 26, 2006, 12:21 AM
Quote from: Sitaram on Jan 21, 2006, 07:26 PM
Every effort of mine is a condemnation of fate;
- C. P. Cavafy

This will be my flagship line as I start my next venture. There are senses
in which this great Cavafy line is entirely true. A declaration quite
Beethoven-like in its shouting back at fate!

The critic Lee Harris says BBM is a story of "such poignancy and nobility"
*because* Jack and Ennis rebel against the labels society ties them up
with.

I am reminded of the poem Invictus

http://literarydiscussions.myfreeforum.org/ftopic896.php

Invictus

Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

- William Ernest Henley

Here is my 3rd autobiographical post at http://www.ennisjack.com

I want to write down some place some of my own life experiences which
relate to Brokeback Mountain in particular, and issues of sexual identity
and preference in general.

Some of these will be short anecdotes of things from my childhood,
adolescence, college years, and beyond.

What comes to my mind as I write this morning, is a thread which asks
"Do you want to dress like Ennis and Jack"

I visited a Greek monastary in the USA, when I was age 24. I was
baptized there by a very old Bishop on a visit from Greece. I wanted to
try monastery life, but I was afraid that this particular Greek monastery
would be too strict. So, I entered a Russian Monastery, also in the USA,
which seemed less strict, and something I might be able to handle. While
a visitor to the Greek Monastery, where I stayed for one week, I dressed
everyday in my suit and tie, as was my custom during high school and
much of college.

At the Russian monastery, which was a dairy farm as well, to generate
income for their operation, it was necessary for me to dress as the farm
workers dress, which included boots. Several monks came from the
Greek monastery for a visit. One of them recognized me from my visit
and came up, his eyes wide and aglow with admiration, and he said
something like , WOW they really made a man of you. He admired my
Ennis/Jack agrarian attire. After a few months at the Russian monastery,
I realized that I would be happier at the Greek monastery, so I returned
and stayed as a novice for one year. I came to know that monk who
admired my cowboy attire. I want to stress that at no time during my
stay at either monastery did I see even the slightest hint of sexual
activity, or same sex attraction. I say this at the outset, to dispell
anyones assumption that I am going to relate some Peyton Place type
sexual scandal about monastery life.

Years after I left the monastery, I learned from the abbot, that about 5
percent of those who enter such a life are gay in their orientation, and the
rest are straight. Whatever the percentage is, I am guessing at 5, it
accurately reflects the percentage of society at large.

Anyway, back to the monk who admired my cowboy attire. He had
entered the monastery at a young age, say 20, and had stayed there for
something like 15 or 20 years. THen he left, and returned to his
occupation as musician playing church organ. Only then did I learn that
he had a gay orientation, which he had surpressed during his years in the
monastery, just as the straight people had surpressed their sexual
desires. Monastic life is about celibacy, and celibacy is a spiritual goal
which both staights and gays can seek. For the gay, it is more difficult,
since they are around other males every day, whereas the straight people
are cloistered from frequent contact from the opposite gender.

That monk who admired my boots and attire was never attracted to me
personally, but, in retrospect, I sense that he found a certain manly
cowboy image attractive, and hence, his remark of admiration.

I knew a certain number of people who would stay in the monastery for
10 or 20 years, and suddenly feel a life crisis, and leave, and return to life
in the world. Those who were straight found a woman to marry. Those
who were gay found a same sex partner. I know others who have
remained and are there to this day, and will undoubtedly die in their
commitment to monastic vows.

During the 13 months that I was a novice in the Greek monastery, I can
honestly say that I touched no one, male or female, nor did I even touch
myself (in the sense of self-gratification, if I may find a tasteful way to
discuss such matters.) Such a degree of celibacy was expected of
everyone. It was not an easy thing to do. It was possible only because
the routine was a all consuming one of long work and church services and
little sleep (say 4 hours at night, and a one hour nap in the afternoon,
while I was used to 7 or 8 hours, and there were some who slept much
less). And also, the vegetarian diet (only sometimes having fish, but
never meat or fowl) kept the body less mischievous.

But I did become very close emotionally to one monk (a kind of Platonic
love or friendship), and I am fairly certain he felt something similar. He
was a very strict person, but he was a human with feelings. We were
allowed to take walks in the woods. Once, I asked him if we could take a
walk. He had a very sweet and compassionate expression upon his face
as he gently explained that such would not be a wise idea, since we were
becoming too close, and such closeness was not encouraged. I could tell
that he wanted to spend time with me, but that he realized we were
feeling too close. And I respected him for his wisdom and moderation and
self discipline.

After I left the monastery and returned to the small Russian parish which I
had attended, there were one or two very worldly people, who
understood nothing about monastic life, and made some joking comment
to me about how they must all be gay. There are ignorant people in the
world who make assumptions about monks, nuns, priests, and who also
make assumptions about gays and lesbians, when in fact, they know
nothing about such worlds, or the people who live in such worlds.

During the summers, there were Greek families who would send one or
two boys to stay at the monaster for a month or so. One boy was
artistically gifted and came to study iconographic painting.

One 11 year old boy befriended me. We took a walk in the woods one
day (which was the major entertainment permitted to monks and
novices.) In the middle of our walk, he suddenly put his arms around
me, placing his head on my chest, and exclaimed "I LOVE YOU." I froze
motionless, startled and puzzled and somewhat frightened. All I said
was, "That's nice" or something like that. After a moment, he stopped
and stepped back, and continued with the conversation (which was about
some science fiction television show he had seen). No mention was ever
made again of what he had done and said. But, afterwards, I heard from
another man, who was a guest, who was in his 30s, that this same boy
had done the same thing to him. I got the feeling that this boy was
sounding people out, to see what their reaction might be. Children as
young as eleven are not completely innocent, and it is possible for them
to have very bizarre agendas. I vividly remember when I was age 10, in
a neighborhood that was all boys (with only one girl way up the street).
And I want to write about those recollections.

I feel that a child under the age of consent (which is 18 in many places,
and 21 in others) cannot under the law freely consent to any kind of
relationship. Any adult who makes the mistake of going along with such
an overture is making a big mistake. I had absolutely no interest or
thought that day regarding anyone. Perhaps if a grown woman had
jumped out of the bushes naked, well, perhaps I would have been
tempted, or perhaps I would have been wise and controlled myself. But
all I ever talked about with this boy was to listen to his stories about his
favorite television show. Years later, I had a chance to see the story that
he told me about. It was a show similar to Twilight Zone. The woman
buys a doll or something from Africa, and brings it home to find that it
turns into this little monster which attacks her. She finally catchs the tiny
monster in the oven, and burns it up. When she opens the oven door, a
puff of black smoke comes out, and she involuntarily inhales some. That
smoke turns HER into the same monster (and that is the end of the story).

I believe there are situations where under age minors will make a move
on someone, perhaps out of sheer curiosity, or perhaps they have had
some other experience with someone else. At any rate, it is not
impossible for a minor to do such a thing, and adults must be very
cautious never to place themselves in some compromising position.

Years later, the same boy, then a grown man in his 20's, came to the
monastery for a visit while I was visiting as a guest. I saw him and said
hello. He seemed very shy. I wanted to ask him some questions about
what had happened with him when he was eleven, but I could sense that
whatever went on with him then was now a taboo subject which would be
very painful for him to discuss. So, I said nothing more than hello, how
are you, and walked away.

Another post from http://www.ennisjack.com

There is a thread at http://www.annieproulx.com forum entitled
something like "When and how did you know you were gay" which is a
worthwhile read.

One man posted there to descibe himself as a totally John Wayne type
(my words, i.e. there was nothing effiminate about him, but he preferred
sex with another man). He said that only once did he go to a gay bar.
He stuck out like a sore thumb because he was not that outwardly
flaunting stereotype of mannerisms that the world associates with gayness
(and even gays associate with gayness). In the bar, people would pass
by him and tauntingly say "Honey, you are in the wrong place."

I suspect that gay men can be as deceived by the stereotype of what
gayness is in much the same way that some blacks are deceived or
beguiled by the stereotype of what it means to be black.

The world does not like people who constantly flaunt anything in your
face, whether it is your sexual agenda, or political agenda, or artistic
agenda. The world likes people who fit in and get along.

Did you ever see a couple in a public place who are madly kissing and
feeling each other, and making a spectacle of themselves. The couple
could be same sex or opposite sex. Another couple might be even more
deeply in love, and sit there modestly, not feeling the need to make a
scene, and attract attention. They express themselves to each other in
private.

I worked for several years in a company where one of the employees was
an openly gay middle aged man. When I first started there, and did not
even know this person, he stood next to me in the mens room at the next
urinal, and turned to me and said, "oh, we always seem to come in here
at the same time (tee hee) just like women, who synchronize their
menstrual cycles when they live together."

I didnt say anything. I am not offended by people being gay. I have
tried in my life to be friends with gays and lesbians. I can honestly say I
have always felt rejected, that they cannot accept me for who and what i
am.

I am a very femine type of male, sensitive, artistic, compassionate, but I
am hopelessly heterosexual. I am rejected just as that macho gay man
was rejected in the gay bar, because he didnt fit the stereotype.

Some people would look at William F. Buckley Jr. on Firing Line, and watch
him rolling his eyes as he uses big words, and assume he is gay. For
some people, being artistic or intellectual is being gay. I imagine this is
the reaction or assumption of some rural homophobe type.

My step daughter, when she was 15, was in a psychiatric hospital for a
month. We went to visit every day. Down the hall from our parents
group session room was a gay mens support group. At break time both
groups would file out and stand in line for the few bathrooms available.
One male couple was incessantly calling each other darling honey sweety
precious beloved dumpling lambypie...etc etc... with every other word. I
am on my second marriage, and have had some long term relationships.
We never did that. The strangers which surround you and listen get the
point the first twenty times you say darling honey sweety precious
beloved dumpling lambypie. So while we are all lined up for the toilet
(one is a single occupancy female, the other a single occupancy male)
one gay man points to the ladies room and says to a woman who is
approaching "Oh, there is a lady in there, i mean a REAL lady." (implying
that he did not mean a gay man who things of himself as a woman).

Now I am citing these true experiences as an example of the flaunting
stereotype vs those men in the world who look very average, macho,
nothing sissy, no make up, no mannerisms, no affected voice or
vocabulary,... no swishing of the head every seven minutes to allow the
hair to swirl and the earring to jingle.... and those gay men are
ostracised by other gays, who feel that they do not fit the stereotype...
just like there are light skined blacks who are prejudiced against dark
skinned blacks..

Predjudice and stereotyping is a funny thing in human nature..... if 20 kids
have white sneakers, and one comes along with green sneakers, then the
green sneakered kid is the one who gets picked on... But if the 20 kids
have green sneakers, then it is the white sneakered kid who gets picked
on...

Jerzy Kosinsky's "Painted Bird" is an interesting read. The name of the
story comes from a fowler (bird seller), who for entertainment, would
paint one bird a different color, and release it in the cage, for the other
birds to peck it to death.

One can look at people and see a broad spectrum. There are men who
seem masculine in every sense, but prefer sex with another male. Then
there are those who feel the need to adopt various levels of mannerisms.
Then there are those who, in addition, feel the need for some makeup,
and female jewelry. Then there are those who feel the need to dress as a
woman, and impersonate a woman, and use the ladies room. Then there
are those who feel the need to be surgically transformed into a woman,
and take hormone injections. And one day, I am sure there will be
someone who will strive to carry a child and give birth, if medical science
ever progresses to the point where such is possible. And if you want to
enter into the realm of science fiction, then were it possible to alter time
and history, there would be someone who would go back to the moment
of their conception, and alter their gender to female. And, if you had
someone with the power of effective dreams, like George Orr in Ursula
LeGuinn's "Lathe of Heaven" then there would be someone who would
strive to altar all of reality and make the human species hermaphrodite as
in Ursula LeGuinn's "Left Hand of Darkness", and make God a woman....
Such is the nature of spectrums.

The far extreme end of my "spectrum" makes Truman Capote seem like
John Wayne and Eisenhower and McArthur all rolled into one.

On some level, this all has to do with the human passion for "one
upsmanship"..... "Oh, you think YOUR gay, well, honey, let me tell you I
am so much more gay than you that.... yada yada yada..."

There is an old romantic song "Falling in love with love is falling for make
believe." Sometimes, we fall in love with our desire to be something
that we are not or can not be, based on our false notion of some
stereotype, when, all along, we could have simply chosen to discover who
we are, and be ourselves.

I try to write and post something each day. It is my way to relax and also
my way to think and learn and explore. I thank you all for your
indulgence of my presence here and apologize to those whom I bore.

To truly explore the story and movie and what attracts or repels us, we
must come to understand our own nature, as well as the nature of the
average individual, both homophile and homophobe, and societies in
general. We have seen, in other posts, how in some societies an openly
gay person may rise to high political office, in stark contrast to those
societies which execute homosexuals, such as Iran.

With this goal in mind, I want to review in my mind all of my personal
experiences with same-sex intimacy.

I have been reviewing these memories all week, since I watched the
movie and resolved to write about it.

During my lifetime, on and off, and I am now age 58, I have thought
periodically about a same-sex experience, but have never actually had
one, except for when I was around age 10, and in the 5th grade, with
three other boys in my neighborhood, one slightly younger, and the other
slightly older, during what science classifies as the "homoerotic" phase of
childhood.

In the mid 1990s I was working as a computer programmer. I spent
about a year, part time, working with several men who were openly gay.
This experience presented an opportunity for me question them about
their lives and feelings, in order to satisfy my intellectual curiosity. One
gentleman, in his fifties, a law school graduate hoping to pass the bar
exam, told me some things from his life, and then made an unbelievably
wise observation to me regarding what I told him of my experiences. He
said, quite simply, “It is impossibly that you are gay, because, in your
various experiences and opportunities, you never acted, even when the
opportunity was present. If you had really wanted such an experience,
you would have acted. Since you did not act, you did not really want such
an experience.” These words, paraphrased from memory, are the words
of a man who has been openly gay all of his life. Now, a homophobe,
hearing of some of my childhood experiences, would proclaim me gay for
even having such thoughts. What does it mean to be gay or straight?
Are their degrees? Is their a scale?

This post is a work in progress to which I shall return. It takes me time to
recall these memories and labor to express them with a grammar and
style which is respectably, if marginally, literate. My personal agenda is to
be a writer and produce something artistically pleasing and
philosophically insightful. I write for enjoyment, not profit. Everyone has
their agenda. Annie Proulx had to try and support her children with her
freelance writing. Money and profit are, quite understandably, frequent
motives in life. My middle aged, gay law school friend could have had an
agenda, and tried to seduce me or convert me to the gay life style. Such
alleged agendas and conspiracies are often the accusation hurled by the
homophobes. I have had several experiences in life where someone was
obviously trying to seduce me. But I have never felt that the gays I have
known were part of some grand conspiracy. Financial security and
healthcare are basic human rights, and it is unfair to characterize as
conspiracy the efforts of a minority to secure such civil rights. The quest
for tolerance is not an agenda, anymore than the desperate quest for air
which a drowning person makes.

I strive for style and order, whenever I write, and yet memories and
feelings are so random and unstructured. Prose itself is an illusion. We
live under the illusion that our thinking are those orderly paragraphs that
we find between the covers of books, and that life itself is that action
packed, purposeful, poetically ironic drama that we see in the
entertainment media.

The Jungian Shadow

Today is laundry day for me. While doing the wash, I struck up a
conversation with an African American man in his 30s whom I sometimes
see in the laundry room but whom I barely know. We have had one or
two discussions in the past. I started the conversation by saying, simply,
“I saw Brokeback Mountain yesterday". His face changed into an
expression of someone who suddenly smells a bad stench. He looked at
me as if I had said, “do you enjoy anal intercourse?” He said, “You
watched it and you liked it? What, are you gay? You must be gay to
watch a movie like that!”

Now, if I were to say that I am a fan of Hannibal Lechter, no one would
suddenly become suspicious that I am perhaps a serial killer who feasts
upon the human flesh of my victims".

My first response was, “Carl Jung speaks of something called the
'shadow'. When we greatly fear or hate something which is outside of us,
Jung suggests that it may be simply a shadow projecting from something
that is actually within us and part of us, which we fear or hate.”

A long and interesting conversation ensued. You have to bear in mind
that I am White and he is Black to appreciate the argument. I suppose it
also helps to picture me as elderly and him as a youth. I said, “Imagine
that you know a man who is a Don Juan, and has seduced literally
thousands of women. Perhaps he is a famous sports figure. Suddenly,
you learn that he had one homosexual experience in his teenage years.
In your mind, now, he is gay. But, if you knew a flaming homosexual,
who had affairs with literally thousands of men, but you suddenly
discovered that he had experienced one heterosexual relationship in his
teenage years, you would not consider him heterosexual simply because
of his one time with a woman. Now, let’s consider the following. If it is
discovered that I, a Caucasian, have one Black ancestor, however distant,
then in the eyes of many that Black ancestry makes me Black or
Colored. But if you, a Negro, have one distant White ancestor, that does
not make you White in the eyes of those same people.”

He protested that my two examples have nothing to do with each other;
that sexual orientation is not the same as ethnicity or race. I explained,
“They have everything to do with each other, because the issue is not
sexuality or ethnicity, but prejudice and stereotyping.”

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