literarydiscussions.myfreeforum.org

bloaaple

Dear friend.

I studied u eassys and found and noted the important points related to religion.Infact it is the greatest enigma and mystery to answer this simple question what is religion.
Thousands books have been written in which the word religion has been defined in different ways but inspite of all those efforts no body define it in its true context. The word religion is not a concerte word
butis an abstract term and every one interpret it in his or her own way.
While reading the books of American writer Kiran Armstrong ,'Definition of God'and Wil Durant's book 'The pleasure of Philosophy 'i come to conclusion that
religion is very differnt to define in concrete term. Some philosopher called religion a way to worship a supernational being.
Another philosopher Have Lock calls it an intution of union with the world.
Well Durant is religious here by giving an example related to day to day life.
He possesses a question 'did u ever see the wonder and fear in the eyes of a dog whos sees a paper blown across his path by the wind? and i imagine that there is a spirit
in the paper. making it move . He is a religious dog a primitive animist. that is how religion began'.
Islam , the religion of muslim , does claim that God is light as surah noor God himself claims that he is god
now question arises that light has no entity so it is very difficult to attribute human qualities to God, lke anger,happiness and other emotion.
In another verse God says ,Koran, i am too near to u even nearer from u oesphagus.
William Words Worth , the greatest Poet of nature, seek god in ther thing of nature.
The world is too much with us;late and soon;
Getting and spending , we lay waste our powers;
Little we see in nature that is ours;
SO he stresses to come to nature and seek god there/
Another philospher that is why called religion the work of poets and called it poetry. To some people religions are myths but still they do belive in religion of humanism.
John Milton, the calibre writer whose enjoys great fame among the circle of literary figures and a role model for epic writer
deleared that mind has its own place ,Hell and Heaven exist in our mind and not outside.
Omar Kayyam the greatest epicurean says enjoy u life there is no doom day or day of judgement after death.
However Islam, Christainity and Judaism have same approach to God, and thier followers belive on the doom day, day of judgement and existence of sole God.
Personally i do believe that every person should have one religion. It does not matter whether he or she belong to christainity , Islam or Hinduism or some other religion.
Most of the followers of any religion are follower of that religion by birth, so even they inherited the religion from thier elders. Very few people are the follower of any relgion by
choice. Religion means faith and faith means blindly follow the prinicple of that religion with out asking aobut the authority of that religion whether it is true one or the false ones.
It is observed that most of ignorant and semi educated are staunch and blindly followers of religion because they use heart rather than head.
The educated minds who have mind are often show doubt towards religion because religious theolgists can not satisty them .
But still every man unconsciously beleives in religion. Even the greatest physictist of all time Albert Einstein , the atheist , showed his belief on religion by saying
that 'science without religion is lamb.
Greek thought that sky was the body of god , uranos.
The american red indian attributes thier decadence to the fact that ther White man cut down ther tree, whose
spirits had protected the red indian.
Coming to my religion , i am muslim by birth and i have inherited religion from my elders. Seconldy i belong to Pathan tribe who in settled in north of Pakistan on Afhanistan and China border
, in the whole histroy u can not find a Pathan who is non-muslim so i inherited Islam
twice from my parents. SO in the light of those fact i wil keep on my religion as with out my relgion i am not even Pathan and Pakistan.
Every one should have one religion first, the religion of humanism from which all religion derive its validity .
We should bring harmony among people by sharing all those ideas which are commonly find in all religion." Behonest with out thought of Hell or Heaven".
thanks
Name Ajab khan Sheikh
PESHAWAR AND PAKISTAN

[img][/img][img][/img]

_________________
i am interested to find educated minds rather than hearts..........any how wish u best of luck
in my begining is my end, u jump i jump,,,,,,,,,,,,,, behonest with out the thought of heaven or hell

Sitaram · Site Admin Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 1079

I admire how advanced your skill is in English, and also how your mind is anxious to tackle advanced subjects in philosophy and theology. I shall make a copy of your post now in the "English as a Second Language" forum, and make some minor corrections for you as I am reading it.

http://www.literarydiscussions.myfreeforum.org/ftopic668.php

Whenever I see the American army uniform of khaki olive color, I think of the Pashtun warriors of Pakistan/India who were the first, so I am told, to wear such a color of military uniform.

It is so nice to meet someone from Pakistan, raised Muslim, who is as open-minded as you are, to speak in terms of general humanism and humanitarian principles which cross the borders and boundaries of all nations and religions.

Sitaram · Site Admin Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 1079

Bloapple: Hi how is going life there in America? I hope you will be safe and sound with grace of almighty God!

Sitaram: Life is ok for now.

Bloapple: Sir, you must include science fiction in you forum, encourage such people. Ad secondly sir, write some thing about American and British or English literature, their comparison, contrast, and also related on other topic, and please do write about cultures also.

Sitaram: But... the forum is for MANY PEOPLE, not just me, so YOU may visit and write,... if you like, I cannot write everything, for time and energy is too limited.

Bloapple: Yes sir I will also write but my writing lacks maturity, and secondly I have very shallow knowledge. Any how I will try to write also. For now you carry on you work. See you next time ,,,,,,,,,,take care and do remember us in you prayers ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,thank you

Sitaram: oh... I am editing your post for you right now.... in the forum English as a Second Language

Sitaram: http://www.literarydiscussions.myfreeforum.org/sutra899.php#899

Sitaram: as I read, I make suggestions and corrections, to polish it up, so you may study and improve.

Bloapple: Thanks I wrote two; one about religion, and one about Salman Rushdie.

Sitaram: Yes... I have attempted to correct and polish both of them

Bloapple: Thanks sir, I am not a native speaker, I am from Pakistan,

Sitaram: Yes, I realize that you will appreciate such editing and suggestions

Bloapple: Thanks for corrections, nice for you suggestion, sir salman rushdie is very not famous writer in Pakistan, because of his book satanic verse,,,,,,,,,,,any how in future I will try to write in more refine language,,,,thanks see you tomorrow

Sitaram: I continue to correct and polish your post. So come back and look at it again, and study it. Study it carefully, to learn and improve. Compare it with your original.

Bloapple: yes I Studied it again, and noted the important points , and my mistakes,,,, yes. And you told me not to repeat word same world again and again in single sentence

Sitaram: But.. I am still working on it... to make it better, and to add pointers on use of bbcode. I placed links to various works... like Havelock Ellis, and Will Durant, and Karen Armstrong. I added links to article about them

Bloapple: ok , I will write about cultures , greek mythology and many many things. It will make me a refined and polished writer.

Sitaram: If you have the time... print out my corrected version, study it line by line, with your original,... and write it out by hand,.... so that various phrases and spellings and vocabulary will soak into your memory. Only by such exercises and practice will you improve and change the way you express yourself when you write. But... you are doing well..... try to continue in such topics... and it is very important to put things in your own words, rather than to cut and paste... since such original expression will exercise your mind. But cut and paste will only exercise your fingers....

Bloapple: I will act on you suggestion

Sitaram: Study different writers, different chapters, and then try your best to post in your own words.... and then go back and re read...

Bloapple: ok sir , I will do

Sitaram: By such exercise you shall become extremely accomplished
and polished. Remember the ancient greek Demosthenes who became a famous Orator (speech maker). As a youth he had a speech impediment. SO, each day he went to the seashore, where the waves pounded noisily.

Bloapple: sir next time I am going to write about american and english literature or some thing else , related to literature

Bloapple: yes remember

Demosthenes

Sitaram: and he filled his mouth with pebbles, and then gave speeches which were louder than the waves noise

Sitaram: and so, he overcame his handicap
Bloapple: I think demosthenus

Sitaram: yes.... this is how we must act ourselves... with patient exercise, to strengthen our weakest areas...

Bloapple: yes sir our teacher often give his example

Sitaram: and always, me must push ourselves to study new things that do not appeal to us...
Sitaram: because if we only follow what we enjoy, then we shall be lopsided

Bloapple: yes sir you really encouraged me

Sitaram: like a child who only eats sweets but no vegitables
Sitaram: and becomes sickly

Bloapple: I have knowledge but expression is the problem so I will improve my expression

Sitaram: we must vary our diet,... with history, literature, poetry, science.... and read from democracy, and communism, and atheism, and Christianity, and Islam, and Buddhism

Sitaram: you have a wonderful mind, I can tell...

Sitaram: and you are anxious to develop it, which is why you reach out on the internet...

Sitaram: and you have a wonderful opportunity to become a leader in your part of the world, and to inspire others to moderation, and peaceful actions....

Bloapple: I am looking for such people but often found people with sallow mind which teased me so much before but now I got a path

Bloapple: sir in one place you mention that I cannot understand the phrase,,,,,,,,,,,, it iwas like this,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, god is light ,,,,,,,,,,,

Sitaram: you see,... on television here, educational television, there is a wonderful indian scholar, who has a weekly series,.... I shall find his name Fareed Zakaria...

Bloapple: and anther one zakir nakk also

Sitaram: and, he interviewed Salman Rushdie.... and Rushdie made the point that, gradually, the Islamic world will reform and modernize itself, and it will happen first in the DIASPORA, the scattering of Muslims throughout other parts of the world, where they are in much

Bloapple: you sir, I watch Oprah, Larry King , with CNN, ,,,,,,,and hot talk

Sitaram: much contact with other cultures, and with secular (not-religious) society...

Bloapple: you are right
Sitaram: I am not saying that this is a DEMAND placed upon the Islamic world, but rather it is an inevitable process....

Bloapple: yes sir I know more about Christainity as I am student of English literature ,

Sitaram: because, now, for first time, in such distant countries and cultures, the young people, like yourself, have access through internet and satellite, to so many secular cultural values and ideas

Bloapple: and even Judasim, and about greek mythology

Sitaram: and, you know, at one literary forum, a college student in Bahrain was asking questions about Christianity, because she was trying to study James Joyce, "Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man"

Bloapple: I love knowledge , does not matter whether it belongs to Islam or Hinduism or

Sitaram: which has SO MUCH reference to Roman Catholic Christian belief and teaching
Sitaram: you see,... you are the prime example of a young Muslim who will become a worldly, secular scholar,... with one foot in your ancient culture and traditions, and the other foot in the secular world of the 21st century

Bloapple: oh james joyice stream of consciousnesss technique , in

Sitaram: yes,... correct, stream of consciousness

Bloapple: you are right , belong to very conservative society of Pathan tribe,

Sitaram: you see,.... a Muslim cannot fully appreciate James Joyce until he masters the concepts of Christian religion, culture and history,.... just as an American cannot appreciate 'The Satanic Verses' unless he masters some notions and understanding of Islam as well as Hindu India....

Bloapple: thanks , sir for you encouragement

Sitaram: well, you see, it is the young people around the world, such as yourself, who are the hope of the future, if we are to all live in peace and build a world for future generations....

Bloapple: yes , I love virgina woolf and d h, Lawrence

Sitaram: I never expected that my message board would attract so many members from India, Pakistan, UAE... but it has, and so obviously there is some constructive purpose why people are searching from such nations....
Bloapple: literature brings us close to humanism,,,,,,,,,
Sitaram: therefore, I must change myself to accommodate their needs and interests...

Bloapple: thanks,,, actually we have first religion is humanism and then other religion

Sitaram: it is not always the case that our lives offer us exactly what we sought or anticipated.... but sometimes life offers us an opportunity for something which is necessary, and useful, but which we did not forsee ourselves...

Bloapple: ya, the one remains, the many changes,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, remember sir ,,,,one of their poets,,,,, I think Tennyson or Yeats but among them,,,,,,,so

Sitaram: it is necessary to the worlds future for ME to learn from you and also for you and others to learn from me....

Bloapple: so one religion humanism remains and many religions are changing
Bloapple: yes sir,,,, you are right

Sitaram: in past years, I have written things which are critical of Christianity and of Islam,... but there is a time to lay aside differences and attempt to achieve a mutual understanding, .... and make possible an atmosphere of change, and of peaceful co-existence

Sitaram: for, if we do not labor and strive towards such things, then our future will be a hell of wars and destruction... and endless violence and fear....

Bloapple: sir have you studied THE futurist Alvin toffler, the future shock I am much inspired from that writer and Emily Dickenson and Robert Frost
Bloapple: harmony , yes
Bloapple: sir

Sitaram: you see how a young open liberal mind like yours is a proof, a refutation, of the stereotype which some people might have of Pakistan or Afghanistan.... thinking perhaps that there are only warlords living there... which of course is nonsense...
Sitaram: there is the same diversity and variety of men and women to be found in each nation and culture and religion

Bloapple: yes course , you are right sir,,,,,,,
Sitaram: just as it is inaccurate for people to characterize all americans and being this way or that way.... it is a stereotype....
Bloapple: it is individual not nation,,,, good or bad
Bloapple: yes you are rite

Sitaram: so,... we have here an open dialogue possible with the miracle of the internet....
Sitaram: and... with your permission,... I would like to save and post our chat, this dialogue... and the forum, for others to read and study, and see it as a MISSION STATEMENT for the forum....

Bloapple: one thing more sir, some time media corrupt minds also,,,,,,as we are loving people always, because we feel pity for other human,,,being literature student I am very sensitive
Bloapple: yes you can

Sitaram: We have the beginnings of English as a Second Language, to help students in other countries..... AND we have the beginnings of discussions about religious and cultural differences.... and controversial authors such as Rushdie

Bloapple: yes I appreciate you efforts

Sitaram: and, you see, in the other forum, I have compared Rusdie with the American humorist Mark Twain, in the sense that Mark Twain (Samuel Clemens) would freely attack things which everyday society held to be sacred and unquestionable

Bloapple: you know sir, doubt is bless according to Robert Browning ,,,,every search starts with doubt

Sitaram: and such writers may be called ICONOCLASTIC, in that they question or smash those things which we have set up as idols which are beyond question or criticism
Sitaram: yes... and Santayana said that "doubt should be like our virginity, our innocence, and we must not casually surrender it to the first idea which passes by"

Bloapple: inner conflict in minds ,,,,,,should be resolved
Bloapple: literary discussion is the sole forum which really help third world and second language speakers

Sitaram: well, certainly, many people may choose to start their own forum at myfreeforum.org and customize and design it in whatever way they prefer

Sitaram: so, I do not have a corner on the market...
Sitaram: and you see, the whole notion of free trade, and anti-trust, is designed to insure individual freedoms of minorities,.... so that all power and ability is not concentrated in the hands of a few, who may then..
Sitaram: who may then dictate who shall be free to write, and who shall be banished, and what is permissible to say, and what is forbidden...

Bloapple: yes I will help you , to update you from asia, and south asia, as I am well stable family ,well

Sitaram: as Voltaire once said, "I do not agree with what you say but I shall defend to the death your right to say it."
Bloapple: yes you are right

Sitaram: and, the American colonial spirit that it is better to die as a free man, with honor, than to live as a slave
Sitaram: of course, I am sure that the insurgent parties in Iraq feel exactly the same way....

Bloapple: remember one writer ,give me liberty or death,
Bloapple: you are rite,

Sitaram: and they see death as preferable to life in a regime imposed by a Western power which does not share their values

Sitaram: I certainly understand such feelings...

Bloapple: you are literary man and have sensitive heart and sensitive mind like writer and poets, as you are alos
Sitaram: for someone with bin Laden's belief, then a woman with make-up and no veil is satanic, demonic....

Sitaram: but... for a vegetarian hindu, a person who slaughters and eats animals is monstrous

Bloapple: yes beliefs are different
Bloapple: but I think one must jusifiy god ways to man

Sitaram: for an American, a democratic constitution and free elections seem most important.... but for other cultures, perhaps it is alien, and perhaps they see the clan or tribe, and submission to a warlord or ruler, as the better way

Sitaram: there are writers who speak of the Book of Job (and his sufferings) as a "Theodicy" or justification of the ways of God to man
Bloapple: you are right but we have democracy but also have feudal class , which took grap the govt , ,,,feudal class govt
Sitaram: the age old question, "Why is it that the good and just man suffers, while the wicked and evil man prospers and grows strong and wealthy"
Sitaram: in the Psalms of the bible there is one verse which says, "I have seen the wicked man spreading in his power and influence as a Greenbay Tree (which is an enormous tree)

Bloapple: democracy can be never flourished in hot regions ,,,,,,,,,,once Plato said
Bloapple: so we have so called democracy in hot regions

Sitaram: you know.... I have used search engines on the Qu'ran, and I once discovered that there are only five verses in the Qur'an which mention the Psalms of the Jewish Bible...
Sitaram: but those five verses speak highly of the psalms, and one verse in Quran says that even the birds sing the psalms....
Sitaram: but... do you not see the irony in this!

Sitaram: The Qu’ran mentions the psalms five times, with great praise, and yet not one single verse of a psalm is quoted in the Quran, nor do muslims ever read the Psalms....
Sitaram: not that I mean to attack islam, or insult you... but you see, when one studies with a questioning mind, then one encounters such contradictions

Bloapple: ok sir,,,,,,,, now I am goig to bed,,,,,,as my brother is going to use computer,,,, thanks for sharing views and good suggestion,,,,,,, take care
Bloapple: yes birds
Bloapple: carry on
Bloapple: I am listening
Bloapple: sir
Sitaram: but.... you see, among the Greek christians, there is an oral tradition, to this very day, that the virgin mary was taken as a child into the temple in jerusalem, and raised until she was ready to give birth...
Sitaram: and the Qu'ran repeats this exact same account, of mary being raised in the temple...
Sitaram: few westerners know the Greek tradition,.... and fewer still know the tradition as it is repeated in Quran
Sitaram: well, you see, regarding Psalms... how could it possibly be that the Quran praises them in five places in five verses,.... and even says that the birds recite them.... and yet, there is no verse of the psalms included in the Quran, and no muslim reads pslams, because they have the notion that jews and christians corrupted everything...
Bloapple: jew according to quran,,wil be ther rich nation
Bloapple: and that is why they are
Bloapple: even jesus was jewish first ,,,,,,, what you say aobut that
BUZZ!!!
Sitaram: well, I am just sharing with you a rare insight which I had from using a search engine on the Qu'ran verses...
Sitaram: I read the quran from cover to cover in english when I was age 19,.... and looked up each word which I did not understand in the dictionary...
Sitaram: the translation was by Muhammed Marmaduke Pickthall,.... whose translation is still popularly sold today...
Bloapple: you are rite, But Quran can be interpreted but not translated ths is the reason
Bloapple: yes , I will help you in this regard , sir, I will introuduce new books if available in market
Sitaram: well, yes, that is always the argument of Muslims, and I understand,... to say that the book by pickthall is translated, with the title "THE MEANING of the Glorious Qur'an" for the simple reason that only the original arabic, properly recited is considered as the actual Quran
Sitaram: I know all this....
Bloapple: we have certain verses which is interpreted in many ways
Sitaram: but... you must also understand that such an argument is often used as an excuse to escape or avoid difficult questions....
Bloapple: so thousans books are written even on single chapter
Sitaram: the jews and christians carefully study each verse of old and new testament, and learn the different languages,..... and are open to debate, and look at the variant manuscripts....
Bloapple: no deear, may be the case with ignorant person,
Bloapple: but educated man will prove,
Sitaram: but... you see, the very first muslim Caliph, after the death of the Prophet, had all the variant copies of the Quran gathered and burned...
Bloapple: yes ,
Sitaram: so, we KNOW from history that various conflicting versions of Quran existed... BUT we can never study and compare, because they were burned
Sitaram: and, getting back to Rushdie..... we KNOW that there is a tradition in the Hadith regarding the several satanic verses which were removed from Quran...
Bloapple: and remember also that first person who translated bible was made on fire, as first man translataed Quran was threaten, to kil,
Sitaram: Rushdie did not make this up, but was very clever to take an historical fact and build a novel upon it...
Sitaram: you see, I sense that the painful thing for you personally, will be as you grow and learn so many conflicting things, but then you will feel pained when they call into question and doubt those religious ideas in Islam which you cherish and hold as unquestionable...
Bloapple: dear ,Quran is complete but may be from hadith whicht is regard of common people of that time,,,,,,,it is calle d sunnit
Sitaram: yes, suni, shia,.... there are many many many sectarian divisions in islam throughout the centuries....
Sitaram: the traditionalists who forbid reason and logic, and the Mutakallimum who use philosophy and reason and logic
Bloapple: no verses is removed that is why rashdi was banned and threaten to killl, becaus he is not a religious scholar, and he has no right to attack any religion,,,,,,,, as relligion for any follower o f that one is complet code
Sitaram: I am not trying to hurt your feelings... but obviously there is a problem for the Afghanistani or Pakistani who is devout, to enter the world scene, in a world in which not everyone considers the Quran as divinely revealed,... a world in which many people may see Prophet Muhammed as a flawed personality
Sitaram: ... who was possibly seeking his own advantage through his teachings
Bloapple: yes , dear I will tell you one thing ,,, christainity and judaism and islam ,,,,,,,,,are the religion whic h one has to follow blindly because faith is efvery thing in religion
Sitaram: this is simply a fact
Sitaram: but... you see, to the secular scholar,.... all religionists are blind,... they must blindly follow certain things without questioning...
Sitaram: for it they question and doubt, then by definition, they are no longer christian, or muslim or jewish
Sitaram: even judaism has split into so many sectarian divisions, hasidic, lubavitcher, orthodox, conservative, reform.... and it is the reform movement which makes women to be rabbis, and denies the ressurection from the dead...
Sitaram: hence... all the other jewish sects have pronounced that the reform are no longer jewish... because they deny ressurection from the dead, which was one of Moses Maimonides 13 points of Jewish belief
Sitaram: each of us, based upon our personal convictions, experiences emotion pain when we are confronted with certain ideas...
Sitaram: one may easily see in the chat rooms the pain of those who are atheists and hate any notion of a god or a religion...
Sitaram: they snarl and foam at the mouth like some mad dog...
Sitaram: and a communist or socialist will snarl and foam at the mouth and the mention of capitalism and private property, and free market competition...
Sitaram: and the captalists will equally foam at the mouth at the mention of communisim...
Bloapple: sorry I was disconnected
Sitaram: ok... well.. you may view the last portion of my posts at the message board.. I shall give you the link
Bloapple: ys sir truely speaking I am not a religious person I have doubt in mind also about al religion not only about islam
Bloapple: but I feel one should have a religion at least ,even all religions seem myths
Sitaram: http://www.literarydiscussions.myfreeforum.org/sutra901.php#901
Sitaram: go to bottom of that post, to see what you may have missed
Bloapple: thanks ,,,,, but one thing is common in all religions is that all religions teach good things
Bloapple: ok
Bloapple: carry on
Sitaram: yes.... YOU ARE RIGHT,... this is the excellent thing about your mind.. that you are willing to see what is common in all religions
Sitaram: so.. take a look at the bottom of that link... to see what I had said after you were disconnected
Bloapple: yes you told some aobut capitalism ,communism, ok I linked
Bloapple: sir turning toward another important question
Sitaram: yes... oh I saw that you mentioned how your brother needs to use computer
Bloapple: the politics of world..........Sir Japan claims that after america it
Sitaram: I missed that when you posted
Bloapple: ok does not matter , so I am asking him , whether he will use or not,,,,,wait one minute sir now
Sitaram: I feel certain that in the next 50 years or so, america will fall way behind as a super power, and some other nation such as China or Japan or India, will emerge as a world power
Sitaram: I cannot tell you why or how this will happen, but I feel sure that it will.... because nothing lasts forever... all things change....
Bloapple: japan claim that she donate more than four permanent members , russia,uk, paris,and china, but stil japan has no representation in permanent membershp of security council

Bloapple: Nothing is permanent but change,,,,,,
Bloapple: what you say , should japan given member ship in security counci permanent members

Sitaram: I am not aware of these issues which you mention.. as I do not watch news or read newspapers... so I would have to read up on these situations

Bloapple: ok sir about that topic I will write and then you will edit and update, I am asia so I am more concerned aobut these issues,,,,,,,,,, and

Sitaram: yes, certainly, understood... feel free to give me links , or post at message board.. so I may read up

Bloapple: yes sir, , I will , sir my brother is here, and he want to use computer ,wil you allow me to go

Bloapple: so that you can also work on computer
Bloapple: he can work on comp

Sitaram: certainly... we may continue later
Sitaram: good night...
Bloapple: yes sir, good nite sir to me ,,,,,here is morning
Bloapple: thanks

Sitaram: thanks for a fascinating discussion which helps me to learn so much

Bloapple: so nice of u,,,learned many thing, and hope to be in future also , take care

Bloapple: and good bye
has signed out. (10/15/2005 9:15 PM)

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