literarydiscussions.myfreeforum.org Literature, Poetry, Essays, Dialogues, Philosophy, Theology    FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Join! (free) >   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Two Heads Are Better Than One          literarydiscussions.myfreeforum.org Forum Index -> Dialogues View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Sitaram Site Admin Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 1079 Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 1:06 am    Post subject: Two Heads Are Better Than One erhankayalik : Hi! literarydiscussions: Hello there! erhankayalik : I just arrived to the dormatory literarydiscussions: Welcome back home! erhankayalik : Thanks. I have to learn all of misteries of SPSS. literarydiscussions: A statistics program? I have heard of it, but know nothing about it. erhankayalik : By entering variables you get outputs by doing necessary proccesses: crostabs, frequincies literarydiscussions: The classic, box-like nature of every function.... something goes in, something else comes out erhankayalik : Right! So right! Dear, I have created a circle, a chain of thougths, a kind of philosophy But I dont want to tell about it in detail to people ,and of questions in this thought is (not a very serious question in whole chain) about relations between people. Do you think relations are some kind of trade that is developed in folks to live together (even the question is so traditional to investigate public relations and individual it is a good question)? literarydiscussions: How interesting. I must think about this for a moment. wrote: Are the relations (interactions) between people a form of TRADE (quid pro quo) which makes possible an atmosphere of peace or harmony in which society may live. There! I have tried to put it into my own words. Notice that QUID PRO QUO means (something performed or given or provided with the explicit hope or understanding that something else will be received or done in return) erhankayalik : Yes literarydiscussions: This touches upon works such as Rousseau (Social Contract), Hobbes Leviathan, Locke, in a political sense... and I am reminded of Psychologist, Alfred Adler, the psychologist, and his book "What Life Could Mean for You"... in an interpersonal sense...and, in literature, I am reminded of Silas Marner by George Eliot (Mary Evans) We might add to all this Platos Republic, and Aristotles Politics. erhankayalik : You say there are lots of from every philosophy in this thought. literarydiscussions: Life is similar to a Mathematical function.... you put something in, you expect something to come out erhankayalik : Right literarydiscussions: In friendships, relationships, we put something in, and expect something to "come out of it" erhankayalik : effect and reflect in physics literarydiscussions: You might take a look at Homer's Iliad, the battlefield dialogue between Glaukos and Diomedes, in which gifts are exchanged. erhankayalik : Isaac Newton literarydiscussions: Yes, the 3rd law: action, equal and opposite reaction erhankayalik : I read it literarydiscussions: And yet, consider the laws of Thermodynamics,... which predict a gradual, inevitable HEAT DEATH,... The entire universe, as a system, must wind down like a clock, until all energy is equally distributed, and luke warm at which point... nothing more can happen... no more events. Think of "exchange"..... and differences of potential energy... Life itself feeds on "negative entropy" erhankayalik : Right and one more thing conflicts occurs because of the unsatisfaction of seller and buyer. it is so natural literarydiscussions: Negative entropy means some very high degree of organization, like a crystal, with much energy bound up, potential energy, waiting to be released,.... then a living thing EATS IT or releases that energy in some way... entropy, on the other hand (as opposed to NEGATIVE entropy) is a high measure of disorder, disorganization, randomness... erhankayalik : organisation collect things to postpone its death time(negative entropy) literarydiscussions: the laws of thermodynamics predict that the entire universe shall eventually become luke warm,.... incapable of supporting more reactions, interactions, exchanges... erhankayalik : total inputs =total outpus ha literarydiscussions: Issac Asimov wrote a short story, science fiction, entitled "The Final Question" (or was it the final problem, final solution), about computers set to solve the problem of HEAT DEATH erhankayalik : hiiim. i havent read it, but i think iwill literarydiscussions: in asimov's story.... generation after generation of people , increase their technology, improve their computers.... and each generation places the same question to the new computers... to solve the problem of HEAT DEATH but.... never is their any solution... Finally, at the end of time, the end of history,... humans have become god like in their powers and knowledge,... and their computers have become god like but....still no answer to the heat death problem... and finally the universe and all life DOES end in heat death.... BUT... literarydiscussions: those computers are now so advanced, that they exist in some other dimension, unaffected... so.. the computers continue to work on the final problem.. and at the end of the story, they find the SOLUTION, the answer... and the story ends with the words LET THERE BE LIGHT WHICH, of course is the first words of the Bible, Genesis, where God creates everything... Asimov is being very clever in his story erhankayalik : i m now looking about asimov in internet i think there are some his books in scool's library literarydiscussions: there is a different story.... called "THe Nine Billion Names of God" erhankayalik : i think i have heard of it literarydiscussions: some Tibetan monks build a computer to discover the nine billion names of God.... in the belief that the universe will end once they are all known well... at the end of the story... the computer finishes its task... and someone looks at the night sky, and sees the stars going out, one by one erhankayalik : in islam god have 99 names beware of 9s in lots of cultures literarydiscussions: yes i am familiar with Islam, and the 99 names... and i think there is a notion of a 100th, unknown... now Yann Martel, in "LIfe of Pi" writes the book in EXACTLY 100 chapters.... which has something to do with this names of god notion erhankayalik : is it a new popular book kind cos i dont like popular cultere books literarydiscussions: but, it is a brilliant novel... which shall become important in future generations erhankayalik : hiimmm so i will lok it toobut iwant tosay that i dont have any problem but this products of capital lokks so made up erhankayalik : problem with capital literarydiscussions: think of the problems regarding SPECULATION, where the value of a stock increases beyond the actual value of the company,... and then there is a CRASH, and an economic depression erhankayalik : right literarydiscussions: hmmm.... let us think about the "energy" of the universe, with regard to thermodynamics, and entropy.... and let is try to find an ANALOGY, an analog, in the ENERGY, involved in interpersonal relationships, on a one to one level, in a small community, on a national level, and on a global level is one SYSTEM in any way a mirror of the other, obeying similar laws erhankayalik : you say think about an energy that got a higher level ond is a mirror of everything? literarydiscussions: In Shakespeares "Midsummer nights Dream", Miranda (whose name means Wonder/Miracle) says "Oh, brave new world that has such people in it." but the reply she receives is "It is new to YOU" erhankayalik : oooowww thats good literarydiscussions: Aristotle said, in the beginning of the Metaphysics...."Philosophy begins in WONDER" (Miranda) so.... part of the energy of human activity is a psychological WONDER, curiosity.... so each new generation of children,.... are like miranda,... everything is NEW to them... Vladimir Nabokov, in "Pale Fire", wrote: "Curiosity is the highest form of insubordination." so, curiosity, wonder.... is a fuel of sorts.... for inventions, revolutions, conquests, exploration... but, the unrest of wonder, curiosity, leads to questioning and instability... political instability... a tyrranical, autocratic government seeks to extinguish wonder, questioning, curiosity.... since it is a source of disobedience, insubordination so.... we see our world history as a great, dynamic, reaction... from the middle ages, through the renaissance,... with the rise of democratic republics,... and today, as you see the world now... with different systems and ideologies,.... communist, socialcist, theocracy, democracy... dictatorship... we may view the history of the world as a long chemical reaction.... in which there are the "exchanges" which you mention.... (something in exchange for something else... expectations)... expectations fulfilled,... expectations disappointed from the time of the Russian revolution,.... communism was a 70 year experiment, spanning 3 generations,... and yet it was an economic failure... and... religion, that "opiate of the people", could not be cured... when the soviet union dissolved, and things were free, people came out clamoring for all kinds of religion... jews wanted to be jewish... there were even those who came to america to be Hare Krishna hindu.... and temples had to set up lessons in Russian language there are some things which change,.... and there are other things which remain forever the same erhankayalik : every thing you say i understand exept some words and im agree wih you literarydiscussions: i am age 56...i have devoted many years to such readings and thoughts.... and it is like climbing a vast mountain..... the higher you get,... the more the view changes... the more you feel you can see... but.... you cannot easily share what you see and understand with others.... only if they also make the same journey, climb the same mountain, spend many years... only then can they arrive at the place where you are, and see the same view... erhankayalik : you have observations and you appresalled them in acorrect way literarydiscussions: i do not have all the answers.... but i have some interesting questions perhaps i have no answers but, questions are also important erhankayalik : questions are base of philosophy literarydiscussions: it is when we stop questioning... that is a "heat death" of sorts erhankayalik : hi hi right literarydiscussions: there are forms of government which seek to repress, silence, all questioning, all curiosity... erhankayalik : cos literarydiscussions: there are other forms of governent which seek to encourage questioning and curiosity erhankayalik : but i ensure you that all systems seek stability literarydiscussions: the power of a tyranny depends upon complete surrender of the people,... to surrender their individuality, their questioning, their curiosity true... the democracy wants to ensure its future stability so it passes a law against plotting to overthow the government by violent means... those who attempt this are seized and executed... literarydiscussions: but... there is provision for changing the government, by elections, by due process of law, by amendments erhankayalik : how much is it healty(i cant find the right word) it si right but how much literarydiscussions: yes... what measure of freedom is tolerable, and what measure of freedom leads to instability... it is a delicate balance For example, the very first commandment in the Bible, in Genesis, the first thing man is explicitly told to do is "be fruitful and multiply"... meaning.. have lots of children...populate the earth... but, now, in China, you see the one child law, which seems cruel, but was necessary to postpone a great disaster of overpopulation... erhankayalik : yes peole here thinks the republic is something great,holy but they cant understand we gave some our power to government to they protect us and give us right conditions to live do you know about old turcsfrom middle asia if khan does something they wont support they pick up their thing ad leave the khan one of my teacher described them as people that votes with their feet literarydiscussions: well... i do not know a great deal, but as i said the other day, i admire the wisdom of kemal ataturk, to destroy some of the old ottoman ways, and attempt to modernize a nation can no longer survive if half the population, the women, are illiterate, and second class, and unskilled, and prisoners.... as one example... literarydiscussions: a person with the mentality of a cleric or imam or fundamentalist can never make a scientific discovery... to cure cancer or aids... because their mind is totally bogged down with racas, and halal and haram, etc etc etc erhankayalik : cos he says deasese comes from god literarydiscussions: and mighty questions such as "should i wash the stones that i cast at the pillars during hajj Salman Rushdie was totally correct when he said that reform must come for islam, and it will come from the diaspora of muslims who live scattered as minorities within a larger multicultural populace erhankayalik : islam and all of other religions turan dursun says literarydiscussions: yes, and all fundamentalist religions erhankayalik : if they wont exist humankind hasnt got one couse to fight but i think its nature of people they fell themselves to find, literarydiscussions: i found one easy, scientific proof, to discredit the quran and islam.... and it was on a documentary on educational television... about a 10 year old child with TWO HEADS,.... two separate brains sharing one body... now.. the Qu'ran says nothing about what to do, should one head become muslim, while the other chants hare krishna.. erhankayalik : some words i dont know here could you explain literarydiscussions: nature has permitted one child to be born with two heads... sharing one body. The child is age 10 erhankayalik : ok literarydiscussions: so ... obviously, whatever god , if there is a god, has permitted this childe with two heads to be born and survive. literarydiscussions: yet, the quran makes no provision... literarydiscussions: suppose one wants to be a catholic nun... and the other wants to be a co wife in islam erhankayalik : hiim erhankayalik : islam says if head choose islam other parts also will belong to islam but what about if one of this heods choose another blief erhankayalik : information about paradoxes in islam literarydiscussions: it is only understandable when you accept that islam is the invention of the mind of mohammed.... and that the nature of "allah" could not possibly describe the nature of an actual god, if god exists erhankayalik : we can call whatever we beliave as source of life erhankayalik : as god erhankayalik : i mean it can be named as god literarydiscussions: it is not possible for one to be highly educated, and democratic, and also believe islam and quran, as a fundamentalist... the two minds are mutually exclusive erhankayalik : right literarydiscussions: one will become a bin laden, and the other will become a salman rushdie erhankayalik : but people take abit from one and abit from other thus they meintenance their lives in this system erhankayalik : this manner is called as oppotunism in socialist termonology Last edited by Sitaram on Tue May 16, 2006 2:05 am; edited 1 time in total Back to top Sitaram Site Admin Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 1079 Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 1:40 am    Post subject: literarydiscussions: hello there... nice to see you on line Hostility: Nice to be here Hostility: how has your day been? literarydiscussions: well,... i had a few valuable discussions yesterday morning (Thursday), which I posted at my message board. One with a college student in Turkey literarydiscussions: and a talented high school student in Germany (i think), posted an interesting essay on Scarlet Letter vs. Tesse of the D'Urbervilles Hostility: under which forum did you post the discussions? Hostility: dialogues? literarydiscussions: i think dialogues, yes... but i can find you the link Hostility: That will work, or tell me the topic literarydiscussions: and of course, if you are logged into the message board.... you can always click on Sitaram, and click on VIEW ALL POSTS Hostility: you've posted alot Hostility: lol Hostility: that would take some time literarydiscussions: But, it is always displayed with most recent first literarydiscussions: so, i used it just now to find my post Hostility: simply tell me the subject, that will do literarydiscussions: http://literarydiscussions.myfree...sutra1090.php&highlight=#1090 Hostility: or that as well literarydiscussions: entitled Death of the Universe version 2 Hostility: rather vain of you to define quid pro quo, ha literarydiscussions: these foreign students in these chats barely understand english... i must take nothing for granted literarydiscussions: look at his grammar and spelling Hostility: I noticed......... perhaps leave out french terms Hostility: lol literarydiscussions: well.... i have to be myself, to some extent.... and he was preparing for an english exam,... so... it is good for him, to stretch, exercise... Hostility: I suppose so Hostility: Not relavent to age, but rather resisted the urge to take one's own life for as long as we have..... Hostility: You see, much like you most likely, I resist the urge each and every day to rise literarydiscussions: oh... i know i must do that eventually.... when it no longer becomes possible to survive economically literarydiscussions: there is no long range hope or future for me... Hostility: Shall it appear an accident? literarydiscussions: i dont know... i would really like to find some way to donate all my organs... seriously... but right now.... it is more productive for me to edit that dialogue... which is what i am doing Hostility: of course, as I was about to recommend literarydiscussions: all the posts could use lots of editing.... and i could use a staff of assistants.... but at least, if i can get something "down on paper", some seeds of ideas.... well,... look about you, on the net.... few other people are doing even this much Hostility: how long do you think you will be able to survive economically? literarydiscussions: what does it matter.... not worth thinking..... all the people in the twin towers, had you asked them such a question the day before.... what would their answers mean... the NOW is what is important... and what I can do with this dialogue literarydiscussions: and whether some of my words can survive... literarydiscussions: if my words and thoughts shall not survive... then what does it matter regarding my person Hostility: for some odd reason, I sensed that something regarding September 11 would be mentioned during our conversation..... Hostility: that's one of the oddest things that has ever happened to me. Hostility: The longer you are here to spout your words and thoughts, the more likely some will survive Hostility: do you grammatically fix each piece of dialogue? literarydiscussions: i do the best i can.... someone may have all the wonderful spelling and grammar in the world... but at the end of their life, if they have produced nothing, left nothing, said nothing, then what was that grammar and spelling worth... Hostility: I am an excellent proofreader Hostility: and I would be happy to assist you if you ever need it literarydiscussions: well... that is very kind.. literarydiscussions: you are welcome to have a forum of your own... to copy posts there, edit them at your discretion... and i will copy the finished product back in place... if that is what you would like to do literarydiscussions: then, you may pick and choose what interests you, work at your own leisure/pace... literarydiscussions: ha ha.. in this dialogue... my two-headed child argument really blows islam out of the water.... Hostility: ha literarydiscussions: for the very simple reason that, the two headed child exists, so if there IS a god in the universe, then that god permitted such a thing... Hostility: indeed literarydiscussions: but the divinely revealed religion and scripture of that god provides no instructions for such a situation Hostility: How horribly ironic, just as religions and religion clerical people do not work well without instructions, I am much the same literarydiscussions: i should really rename the dialogue "Two Heads are Better Than One" Hostility: Lmao Hostility: You really did use that argument well Hostility: it is not possible for one to be highly educated, and democratic, and also believe islam and quran, as a fundamentalist... the two minds are mutually exclusive Hostility: I love that literarydiscussions: well, it is so obvious, to look at the mind and life of a bin Laden, and then look at a Salman Rushdie literarydiscussions: or compare WIlliam F. Buckley, Jr. with Mohammed Ali, or any number of other people... Hostility: horribly true literarydiscussions: compare einstein and stephan hawking to martin luther and john calvin Hostility: Though, I don't really know if it's fair to compare Rushdie to bin Laden literarydiscussions: or compare the life of plato to hitler,... the mind, outlook, goals, methodology literarydiscussions: history is truly a treasure chest of possibilities for the mind.. or, toy chest... Hostility: A somewhat off the topic question inspired by your citing of martin luther: Is it not strange that more christians than not, when the name martin luther were mentioned, they would not think of the great one who changed the church, but rather the one who was part of the civil rights movement? Hostility: Too many are ironically blind to their own beliefs literarydiscussions: yes, there is always that confusion with martin luther KING... so i often add, martin luther OF THE 16TH CENTURY PROTESTANT REFORMATION, to be very clear Hostility: only a fool, which many people are, would think of King first literarydiscussions: but i knew if i said luther and calvin in the same breath, you would understand literarydiscussions: noo, on the contrary... many people know little of the reformation luther... Hostility: I may not be quite the smartest person in the world, but when the words luther are spoken, he who changed the church comes to mind before King Hostility: Indeed Hostility: It is ironic Hostility: that he is not taught about hardly at all literarydiscussions: you see.... my writings can really do far more for the world, if somehow they can reach simpler people...... for the simple reason that the intellectuals and scholars will have their own ideas, and may be resistant to mine Hostility: as a child, I remember my culture studies book having two paragraphs of Martin Luther, and two chapters on King literarydiscussions: but, if young people in Turkey and Iran and Pakistan can read some of these things, and understand, then it might make quite a difference in the world Hostility: Very true Hostility: I am afraid that, in some ways, Gandhi was overrated literarydiscussions: every historical figure is subject to the phenomenon of heroification. look at what Carl Sandburg did to Lincoln, granting luminosity even to his flatulence Hostility: Very true literarydiscussions: it was and is being done to JF Kennedy literarydiscussions: and Mother Theresa... and many others Hostility: Mother Theresa certainly literarydiscussions: but.. that process of exaggeration does not detract from the actual virtues of the individuals life and work... Hostility: JFK has suffered some, but I think he is worthy of some praise atleast Hostility: indeed literarydiscussions: more of us should look a Plutarch's Lives literarydiscussions: which show, i think, a greater realism and balance Hostility: I am curious, do you have any thoughts on the current Pope? literarydiscussions: he was their best choice at this time... the most important thing that the RC church has going for it is dogmatic and liturgical uniformity and continuity, universality. If that goes, then they become just one among many Protestant denominations, which would soon splinter into a myriad of sub-denominations Hostility: Very possible literarydiscussions: the world likes authority, and the idea of a pope.... they look for a pope of islam, a pope of hinduism... Hostility: This is truth literarydiscussions: billy graham is a pope of sorts Hostility: ha! I never really thought in such a fashion.... literarydiscussions: there is a very long street in Brooklyn, I forget the name, Dekalb I think, but a bus takes 40 minutes to travel the length. And you can see, in each and every block, at lest one, but sometimes two store front churches, with the pastor's name emblazoned. Each of those little store fonts has its own papal authority and infallibility. The Reformation changed nothing, but simply multiplied it. Hostility: ha, I could not agree more.... Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         literarydiscussions.myfreeforum.org Forum Index -> Dialogues All times are GMT - 5 Hours Page 1 of 1   Jump to: Select a forum Showcase----------------You must CONTACT SITARAM directly to JOIN this message boardVoices of Africa UnitedHOW TO JOIN THIS FORUM. Click Join(free!) at upper right. 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