literarydiscussions.myfreeforum.org Literature, Poetry, Essays, Dialogues, Philosophy, Theology    FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Join! (free) >   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Experiments With Time          literarydiscussions.myfreeforum.org Forum Index -> Dialogues View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Sitaram Site Admin Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 1079 Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:29 am    Post subject: Experiments With Time EngineerInIran: hello sitaram literarydiscussions: i just talked with that poor young woman in india literarydiscussions: she says her breathing problems are less since she stopped meditating EngineerInIran: you see! literarydiscussions: i told her I talked to a doctor in Tehran EngineerInIran: and? literarydiscussions: but... now she was just talking with me literarydiscussions: about her problems... EngineerInIran: yes? literarydiscussions: so... my thought is... perhaps you can become a friend on line... and say hello literarydiscussions: well, i know you are busy but... EngineerInIran: hey she could go meet a real doctor literarydiscussions: i know, and i encourage that literarydiscussions: but... you are a fellow young woman literarydiscussions: and on yahoo EngineerInIran: I dont think I could help her that much EngineerInIran: from such distance literarydiscussions: so... who knows... she might take some comfort EngineerInIran: how can I help you? literarydiscussions: but.... i know you are busy literarydiscussions: and, such people as this person can be rather demanding literarydiscussions: and even pesky, pests EngineerInIran: what you mean? literarydiscussions: well, she is mentally ill in some fashion, and neurotic,... and she will contact me again and again, and constantly repeat the same issues... literarydiscussions: that is how such people are EngineerInIran: oh EngineerInIran: I see literarydiscussions: a healthy balance person addresses an issue,.... makes a decision, and moves on... EngineerInIran: her breathing problems must be neurotic literarydiscussions: the neurotic goes in the same circle.... rehashing the same issues over and over literarydiscussions: like a broken record, whose needle keeps jumping back EngineerInIran: literarydiscussions: this is sad, but quite true EngineerInIran: so please dont put me in that circle literarydiscussions: nooooo... not you... literarydiscussions: you are normal and balanced literarydiscussions: you are quite strong emotionally, in fact literarydiscussions: resiliant EngineerInIran: yes but if I start talking with her she might put me in her circle literarydiscussions: now that i think of it... it is better if you do not literarydiscussions: do not make contact EngineerInIran: yes literarydiscussions: you do not have the time to be pestered by her EngineerInIran: then? literarydiscussions: and, if you reject her, then she will just feel worse literarydiscussions: i shall email you our chats,... and you may give me occasional feedback EngineerInIran: what I suggest is that your time is more precious EngineerInIran: you could talk with more balanced people literarydiscussions: well,... you know... i see what you say... but... literarydiscussions: she does seem to need my help... EngineerInIran: you can not help her much sitaram not from such distance literarydiscussions: and she is considerate, whenever i explain i am busy EngineerInIran: literarydiscussions: words can help much, sometimes literarydiscussions: or, just being there, and showing concern EngineerInIran: I know literarydiscussions: your friendship and sustained concern is a comfort to me... EngineerInIran: so is yours!~ literarydiscussions: it is hard when someone comes to feel that no one cares EngineerInIran: true literarydiscussions: and, you know, i worry about the young people around the world, in various countries and cultures,... and about such nations and governments,.... and also, about world peace, and the future of human race literarydiscussions: so... communication is important, among generations and cultures EngineerInIran: true EngineerInIran: you can not solve all the worlds problem literarydiscussions: so, when you and i communicate and discuss,.... it places issues on the table, for consideration EngineerInIran: yes literarydiscussions: and, of course, if we have pen-pals in pakistan, and iran, and usa, and saudi... then... we see those foreign places as more familiar, with a human face, with individuals literarydiscussions: and not just stereotypes EngineerInIran: yes literarydiscussions: in my mind, i see asar nafisi in her apartment, with her shoes kicked off... sipping some wine, and munching a ham sandwich EngineerInIran: literarydiscussions: we are all human, we share the same desires, fears,.... we rejoice at the same pleasures, and weep at the same griefs EngineerInIran: true EngineerInIran: I didnt mean what you do is wrong EngineerInIran: its so human and I appreciate it literarydiscussions: we disguise ourselves in ideological costumes of communism, democracy, mysticism, military, etc EngineerInIran: oh sitaram right now that we are talking two are trying to send me to hell literarydiscussions: ? literarydiscussions: who is sending you to hell EngineerInIran: one because I told him I am talking with you literarydiscussions: religious fanatics EngineerInIran: and he is too selfish to understand literarydiscussions: a romantic interest literarydiscussions: that american artist EngineerInIran: the other because I told his gfriend about him literarydiscussions: told his girlfriend!, well, perhaps we SHOULD send you to hell, or at least to a warmer climage literarydiscussions: climate literarydiscussions: just kidding EngineerInIran: the other day he asked me about his netfriend's boyfriends and affairs EngineerInIran: the girl was my net friend EngineerInIran: so I told the girl about his questions literarydiscussions: is this a "kiss and tell" kind of thing? EngineerInIran: and it made her upset or what EngineerInIran: what do you mean literarydiscussions: an old american expression EngineerInIran: literarydiscussions: a boy kisses a girl... and then tells everyone literarydiscussions: he is a "kiss and tell" EngineerInIran: no EngineerInIran: haha EngineerInIran: I mean the girl was my net friend literarydiscussions: a bad policy, since one gets fewer kisses that way EngineerInIran: the the guy was his net friend as well literarydiscussions: ha ha literarydiscussions: well.... if someone trys to pry..... to SPY... which is what he is doing... EngineerInIran: and he wanted to extract information about her love life from me literarydiscussions: then the spied-upon person feels betrayed literarydiscussions: precisely EngineerInIran: yes and I told my friend(the girl)about him! EngineerInIran: I thought she must know literarydiscussions: well... he is not to be trusted EngineerInIran: yes thats what i told her literarydiscussions: for example.. that american artist.... IF he were to ask me about you, about what you and i discuss... i would remain silent... EngineerInIran: but she is young etc and that guy is a fool literarydiscussions: since it is dangerous to gossip... and betray the trust of others EngineerInIran: oh stephen you mean literarydiscussions: though that american artist, yes, stephen, seems to be quite honorable EngineerInIran: he wouldnt ask such things literarydiscussions: exactly... EngineerInIran: I am careful about my friends literarydiscussions: but.. IF he did, then it would be my responsibility to remain silent and discrete EngineerInIran: true EngineerInIran: but you would tell me that he asked etc wouldnt you? literarydiscussions: so, you did well to warn the young woman literarydiscussions: yes... but, he said not a word about you literarydiscussions: he seems quite mature, serious, responsible... EngineerInIran: yes I mean if he did you felt responsible to tell me literarydiscussions: an honorable person, from what i can see EngineerInIran: literarydiscussions: i would tell you, yes, but he said nothing... EngineerInIran: yes yes I am sure literarydiscussions: the one time we chatted briefly, he had just returned from the ny times square new years celebration... literarydiscussions: he is there visiting for a month, doing some script for his brother, i think EngineerInIran: oh he is in your list then? EngineerInIran: yes his brother is trying to make a play literarydiscussions: well, i added him, but i cant remember, if he contacted me or i contacted him, but it was only once EngineerInIran: and he makes the plays music literarydiscussions: yes... the music... he is SCORING it, i think that is the word he used literarydiscussions: the musical score EngineerInIran: what does it mean? literarydiscussions: a musical SCORE, is a theatrical term... literarydiscussions: so, the person who arranges the music for a performance is SCORING it... EngineerInIran: ah I see EngineerInIran: literarydiscussions: oh... listen EngineerInIran: yes? literarydiscussions: i had a $25 gift certificate to a bookstore and bought 3 books literarydiscussions: paperback EngineerInIran: wow literarydiscussions: Umberto Eco on Literature (some essays, speeches) EngineerInIran: very well!!! literarydiscussions: also.... there was a woman who was a nun, and left (Ms. Armstrong) and wrote "History of God" EngineerInIran: haha literarydiscussions: well, there was a very cheap paperback by her, "A Brief History of Islam" literarydiscussions: so i bought that... i think perhaps she converted... EngineerInIran: its interesting for God to read his biography! literarydiscussions: well, that god biography was a best seller i think EngineerInIran: EngineerInIran: yes everybody is curious about gods life literarydiscussions: and then, i bought a penguin edition of Karl Marx (and Engels) COmmunist Manifesto, with essays and commentary EngineerInIran: ah interesting EngineerInIran: you tell me about it when you read it..please literarydiscussions: and, you know, Marx and Engels were inspired by the SHAKER religious communes in america, which where economic successes in the 1700s EngineerInIran: cause these days I am studying about Frankfurt school EngineerInIran: no I didnt know literarydiscussions: when marx was on his death bed, engels wrote him a letter saying "do not lose heart, but REMEMBER THE SHAKERS" EngineerInIran: what is this shaker? literarydiscussions: also, listen.... it occured to me years ago, that on Mt. Athos, a peninsula in Greece, which is male monasteries since 300 A.D. ... is only place in world where pure communism was practiced literarydiscussions: the Shakers AND the Quakers were religious groups in America EngineerInIran: tell me about their religon literarydiscussions: both got their names from verses in bible which speak of "fear and TREMBLING" literarydiscussions: WELL, the quakers exist to this day.... literarydiscussions: in fact, late president Nixon was from a quaker family... EngineerInIran: what they believed in? literarydiscussions: and quakers were always non-violent pacificts... (military objectors) literarydiscussions: BUT... the SHAKERS are far more interesting literarydiscussions: they DID NOT BELIEVE IN marriage, or sex... the remained celibate their whole lives... literarydiscussions: people would bring unwanted children to the shakers, and the shakers would raise them EngineerInIran: oh literarydiscussions: when the child turned 18, the shakers would ask them if they wanted to remain in the religion, or else, they would give them their freedom EngineerInIran: they made them unwanted herps! EngineerInIran: heros! EngineerInIran: heroes literarydiscussions: but, you see.... in 20th century, they died out literarydiscussions: because... the world changed,.... and, of course, the shakers had no children... literarydiscussions: adoption policies changed... literarydiscussions: in late 1800s, they would put orphans on a train, and stop at each town, and any farmer who wanted to take a child could do so... no papers, no investigation... literarydiscussions: on television, they interviewed an old woman who had been adopted from such a train EngineerInIran: ph EngineerInIran: oh literarydiscussions: she said that the farmer and his wife said "if you will come home with us and be our little girl, we will give you a pony to ride (small horse)... literarydiscussions: well, the old woman had tears in her eyes.... saying.. that these people were so good to her EngineerInIran: literarydiscussions: a very touching story EngineerInIran: but what if they werent literarydiscussions: well... of course, that happened to... EngineerInIran: I mean its a risk EngineerInIran: poor children literarydiscussions: but.. then god makes possible for both saintly and wicked people to conceive and sire children... literarydiscussions: just as the rain falls upon the just and the wicked, alike EngineerInIran: literarydiscussions: my point is... there is injustice and cruelty, both in natural childbirth,... and adoption EngineerInIran: true literarydiscussions: plus... i personally know an old woman who adopted a boy and a girl, and raised them from infancy... EngineerInIran: yes? literarydiscussions: and.. in a way, she was good to them... but in another way,.... well... how shall i say this... she was like an emotional parasite EngineerInIran: ah literarydiscussions: controlling... using them for her own selfish needs EngineerInIran: how depressing literarydiscussions: so... i watched her once.. with her grown son, who was in his 30s.... and she kissed him on the lips, a number of times.... EngineerInIran: haha literarydiscussions: in my family and culture.. this is a wicked thing EngineerInIran: you can not judge their relations literarydiscussions: for a parent to do to a child literarydiscussions: but.. you see.. the boy grew up to be quite odd, and never married... literarydiscussions: so... sometimes.... such a parent destroys the childs personality EngineerInIran: oh perhaps I never marry but it doesnt mean its my parents fault you know!!! literarydiscussions: they speak of jobs (employers) which have GOLDEN CHAINS... literarydiscussions: when you know this particular woman, you begin to see how insideous and controlling she is EngineerInIran: yes I can not know literarydiscussions: she uses people like things EngineerInIran: literarydiscussions: there is a saying.... "we are meant to use things and love people. yet we love things and use people." EngineerInIran: well I am sorry for those children who have to real supporter EngineerInIran: literarydiscussions: love itself can be cruel and destructive EngineerInIran: well its not love literarydiscussions: or it can be selfless and liberating literarydiscussions: there is old song here, "falling in love with love, is falling for make believe" literarydiscussions: it is possible for the yound and idealistic to fall in love with THE IDEA of being in love... EngineerInIran: EngineerInIran: true literarydiscussions: when we love another AS OUR SELF,... then this is a selfless love literarydiscussions: unselfish literarydiscussions: Aristotle said, "A friend is another I" literarydiscussions: as in I, me, my EngineerInIran: wow EngineerInIran: I am another friend of mine! literarydiscussions: no... we cannot reverse it and say that "I is another friend" EngineerInIran: true I meant that literarydiscussions: it is not a two-way street EngineerInIran: why not EngineerInIran: you can be your best friend literarydiscussions: although, it IS true, that if we cannot love ourself (in a certain fashion), then we can never love others literarydiscussions: in the sense that, if we do not believe that we are loveable, then we shall never believe that another loves us EngineerInIran: literarydiscussions: and, in a different sense, we do not love ourselves when we injure and harm ourselves with dangerous behavior.... EngineerInIran: true literarydiscussions: so... if we cannot treat our self in a loving fashion, as nurturing.... with good stewardship, then we shall never be able to nurture another literarydiscussions: there are selfish forms of love, and then there is a selfless form of love EngineerInIran: haha yes literarydiscussions: when we give of ourselfs, or deny ourselves for another's sake, without any expecation of return... then such is a selfless love literarydiscussions: give of ourselves EngineerInIran: or stupidity EngineerInIran: haha literarydiscussions: when we give or sacrifice with the expecation of a payback,... then this is a selfish love literarydiscussions: but.... many a parent will do much for their child, but then expects the child to be eternally grateful, and indebted to the parent literarydiscussions: but, this can be chains upon the child, to prevent them from leading full and independent and fulfilling lives EngineerInIran: sorry give me some minutes literarydiscussions: there are forms of love which cripple others EngineerInIran: (am sorry) EngineerInIran: oh am terribly sorry for intruption EngineerInIran: you are still there? EngineerInIran: hello EngineerInIran: ? EngineerInIran: hope you are not angry with me literarydiscussions: not at all EngineerInIran: oh good EngineerInIran: am sorry I had to live EngineerInIran: leave EngineerInIran: literarydiscussions: yes, certainly, you have your other duties EngineerInIran: love...I dont know what it is...I just know what is not love literarydiscussions: good point EngineerInIran: I hope one day I realize what it is..see it in me EngineerInIran: I see it in some people ...but still am not sure if its love literarydiscussions: in umberto ecos "On Literature" he speaks of how Dante's Divine Comedy literally shaped the Italian language EngineerInIran: yes? literarydiscussions: we see Dante move from hell, through purgatory, to heaven... seeking this illusive "love" literarydiscussions: in the form of Beatrice EngineerInIran: true EngineerInIran: I read hell literarydiscussions: Inferno EngineerInIran: and a bit of heaven EngineerInIran: yes literarydiscussions: inferno is the poetic word for hell EngineerInIran: I know literarydiscussions: when people hit their thumb with a hammer, and get angry, they shout HELL, they do not shout INFERNO EngineerInIran: EngineerInIran: and they dont say...I hope you would come with me to inferno literarydiscussions: EACH nation /people must swear.... literarydiscussions: what swear words to people say in farsi EngineerInIran: haha well those whom I usually meet dont use many swears literarydiscussions: my wife shouts "ai puta" which means "oh whore" EngineerInIran: swear words EngineerInIran: ah literarydiscussions: but... when people DO swear, in farsi... what do they say... literarydiscussions: i mean... americans, even jews, say JESUS , and CHRIST.... as swear words EngineerInIran: well actually I dont know much about bad words..I dont even understand their meanings literarydiscussions: but... i suppose no one swears with name allah EngineerInIran: yes poor jesus literarydiscussions: but.. you know... there is a verse in bible somewhere, which says "my name shall become a swear word" EngineerInIran: haha EngineerInIran: but he didnt mean in that way literarydiscussions: but... who knows... perhaps it IS meant that way... and perhaps we can see the truth,... in the fact that even jews swear with that name... literarydiscussions: though.. only secular jews... literarydiscussions: worldly ones... EngineerInIran: literarydiscussions: not the orthodox hasidic ones EngineerInIran: for example I love it when they say ..oh holy cow! literarydiscussions: then, we have harmless words, like HECK, phooey, shucks, darn, literarydiscussions: mooo EngineerInIran: haha EngineerInIran: its a funny swear EngineerInIran: on imagines a big patchy cow literarydiscussions: there is a man where i work, he is janitor, from Dominican Republic, who grew up on a farm, with cows and sheep EngineerInIran: yes? literarydiscussions: and he told me that, it is very common for teenage boys, on such farms,... to have SEX with the cow or sheep... EngineerInIran: ah literarydiscussions: i have read this in books... but i never until last week spoke to someone who actually did it... EngineerInIran: haha EngineerInIran: yes literarydiscussions: seriously... it is something of sociological, anthropolical interest literarydiscussions: and medical interest EngineerInIran: I know they told us in psychiatric ward literarydiscussions: since it might become a vector for transmission of disease EngineerInIran: it is literarydiscussions: you know... when i was age 10.... there were no girls in our neighborhood... only boys... EngineerInIran: EngineerInIran: why not? literarydiscussions: and the boys would go out in the woods... and take off their pants.... and one boy who was age 8, the youngest... he would put his finger in the rectum of all the other boys.... literarydiscussions: it was a weird sexual thing... that childern do EngineerInIran: ah EngineerInIran: how disgusting literarydiscussions: i asked him about the germs.... literarydiscussions: because i was terrified of germs and dirt EngineerInIran: yes EngineerInIran: haha literarydiscussions: and he laughed at me and said... "oh, i wash my hands before i eat" EngineerInIran: ah god EngineerInIran: please change the subject literarydiscussions: ok EngineerInIran: tell me since when you started writing poetry? EngineerInIran: and how you realized you can do it? literarydiscussions: but... you shall not be able to enter deeply into the human mystery, as long as you feel fear for certain topics... (my final comment) literarydiscussions: i started to write poetry at age 13 or so EngineerInIran: EngineerInIran: and how? literarydiscussions: it was 6th grade i think literarydiscussions: so perhaps age 12... EngineerInIran: (I dont fear ..I just like to make my day beautfiul) literarydiscussions: that was my first male teacher literarydiscussions: all earllier years and teachers were female EngineerInIran: yes literarydiscussions: he would put a proverb on the board each day, and we had to copy it down in a notebook literarydiscussions: and he would check our notebooks every month for completeness EngineerInIran: oh literarydiscussions: well, a proverb is like a poem, in a way... literarydiscussions: so, i began to write a few proverbs EngineerInIran: oh your own proverbs? literarydiscussions: and, one day, he honored be by placing one of my proverbs upon the black board EngineerInIran: oh literarydiscussions: the other students were perhaps angry that he should do this EngineerInIran: why? EngineerInIran: jealous they were? literarydiscussions: jealosy, resentment... literarydiscussions: perhaps... EngineerInIran: but you were happy! literarydiscussions: the thought that i was the teacher's pet EngineerInIran: do you remember it EngineerInIran: ? literarydiscussions: well, of course, i wanted honor and recognition EngineerInIran: haha literarydiscussions: actually, i cannot remember what it was that i wrote EngineerInIran: its ok EngineerInIran: and you realized you can write poetry? literarydiscussions: i do remember that we had to write an essay "What I fear the Most"... EngineerInIran: literarydiscussions: so,... i wrote about how I fear "FEAR" itself... EngineerInIran: literarydiscussions: not knowing that this was a speech by roosevelt EngineerInIran: in that age? EngineerInIran: oh was it? literarydiscussions: and the teacher accused my mother and I of dishonesty... EngineerInIran: oh god literarydiscussions: saying that I could not possibly think up such a thing on my own EngineerInIran: stupid teacher literarydiscussions: the teach thought my mother put me up to it, by giving me the idea EngineerInIran: oh literarydiscussions: i can remember the moment of insight... literarydiscussions: when i told my mother that fear was the worst thing to fear EngineerInIran: literarydiscussions: she looked rather startled literarydiscussions: but, impressed EngineerInIran: ah obviously EngineerInIran: you are really special literarydiscussions: but, you see.. when i was age 4 or 5... i heard adults say that time passes slowly when we are unhappy... EngineerInIran: yes literarydiscussions: and time passes quickly when we are happy.. EngineerInIran: literarydiscussions: and i thought they meant, literally, that time slows down and speeds up literarydiscussions: so... each afternoon, my mother would give me a bottle of warm milk, and put me in bed for a nap... and i would look at my little childrens books until i fell asleep literarydiscussions: so, i performed an experiment, to see if i could detect the slowing down and the speeding up of time literarydiscussions: first, i looked at my least favorite book, which was red fire trucks... literarydiscussions: i watched in my mind, to see if time slowed down... literarydiscussions: then, i took my most favorite book, cool blue colors, about the christmas nativity and the virgin mary literarydiscussions: and i tried to detect the speeding up of time... literarydiscussions: but.. i realized that i could detect no difference in time... 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