literarydiscussions.myfreeforum.org

Sitaram · Site Admin Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 1079

bananafish: what kind of books do you read?

literarydiscussions: i have recently read Thomas Pynchon: Gravity's Rainbow, & The Crying of Lot 49

literarydiscussions: I am reading DH Lawrence, Sons and Lovers
literarydiscussions: recently I have read, The Satanic Verses, Salman Rushdie,.... Silas Marner

bananafish: have you read anything, written by mervyn peake?
bananafish: i'm eastern european

literarydiscussions: no.... but, i could google on that author
literarydiscussions: what languages do you speak
bananafish: i know only several words in hindi
bananafish: i speak russian, english
bananafish: spanish and german a little
literarydiscussions: ya gavaryou parouski, no, kshshalyeneeyou, redko byweevayet bremya razgavareevatch, eee malo po malu, ya zabwevayou
literarydiscussions: nymnoshka
literarydiscussions: ya gavaryou nyemnoshka
bananafish: i see. do you have russian roots?
literarydiscussions: no.... i spent several years in russian orthodox churches and one monastery in usa... and taught myself, along
literarydiscussions: along with some church slavonic
literarydiscussions: when i was in my 20s, in the 1970s
bananafish: that's very unusual.

bananafish: i heard, that there's an orthodox church in alaska
literarydiscussions: I taught myself modern Greek, prior to that, in my early 20's, and studied ancient greek in college
literarydiscussions: St. Herman of Alaska,.... the russians were early to colonize and apostolize there
bananafish: not a modern branch of orthodox church, of course.
bananafish: what's more interesting for you: languages and arts or office work?
literarydiscussions: well, i was in ROCOR (russian orthodox church outside of russia),... at that time under Metropolitan PHilaret, whom I met several times,...
bananafish: i have to do office work every day. means - maintaining computer files, dealing with diffrent documents and so on.
bananafish: but prefer to discuss literature and languages.

literarydiscussions: well... i like arts and languages.... but i have always had learning disabilities which make it impossible for me to perform on standard tests/exams, which in turn makes it impossible for me to earn the academic credentials necessary to work in literature

bananafish: we can continue to talk in russian, if you don't mind

literarydiscussions: you know,..... i often think that, if i DID have a career in universities, as a professor.... but...

literarydiscussions: oh... my russian is not that good,... it is a great strain for me even to write the few sentences in russian
bananafish: because as it seems to be, it was a serious hobby for you
bananafish: mne interesnee obschatsya na angliiskom.
literarydiscussions: if i DID have a career in universities,... then, it seems to me there would be much pettiness and bureaucracy,..... and there would be apathy on the part of many students and professors
literarydiscussions: it interests you to (practice/exercise?) in english?
literarydiscussions: i am guessing at obschatsya
bananafish: yes, i studied it from my early childhood
literarydiscussions: oh, i have been reading a wonderful critical work on Nabokov's Lolita...
alyonamil : suppose, music hobbies of my parents helped a lot
literarydiscussions: which describes Nabakov's life and education in detail
literarydiscussions: he grew up with english speaking nannys,.... his family was quite wealthy.... he spoke english as a child
alyonamil : because of beatles,abba and music of 60's and 70's
alyonamil : i compose poems in english
literarydiscussions: what country are you in right now...... i have 50 or 60 poems on the internet
alyonamil : can't compose in russian properly
alyonamil : i'm in russia
literarydiscussions: which city? just curious
literarydiscussions: what are you near, that i might recognize
alyonamil : moscow
alyonamil : i live in the capital
alyonamil : it's very convenient, because all good universities are situated here
literarydiscussions: i learned russian from an old woman in the 1970s, Maria Haralampovna von Tiesenhausen, who had childhood memories of St. Petersburg befor the revollution
literarydiscussions: she spoke only russian, so i had to learn to communicate
alyonamil : and it's not a problem to find a good job, if you live in a crowded city
alyonamil : i went to the meetings of the noble society
literarydiscussions: once we acquire a taste for art and philosophy and intellectual life, then we are condemned to a lonely isolation in a world of people who have little interest in such matters
literarydiscussions: we become aliens, exiles
alyonamil : it's very interesting, how this society is organised nowadays
alyonamil : what's your opinion about modern literature?
literarydiscussions: the Russian Orthodox CHurch outside of Russia (ROCOR) was the arch enemy of the offical russian church and the Moscow Patriarchate
literarydiscussions: modern literature
literarydiscussions: ok
literarydiscussions: I take a great interest in postmodernism
alyonamil : and can you give me your opinion about works of salinger?
literarydiscussions: which seems to have its start as early as the 18th century with Tristram Shandy, Laurence Sterne
alyonamil : i think, we can discuss the orthodox church in the future
literarydiscussions: you may read my posts on Salinger, "A Perfect Day For Bananafish" at my message board, i will give you the link
alyonamil : ok, i'd be glad to read it
literarydiscussions: http://literarydiscussions.myfreeforum.org/ftopic688.php
alyonamil : what do you think about beat generation?
literarydiscussions: if you join,... i can make a forum there just for you...
literarydiscussions: ok, beat generation
literarydiscussions: i have memories of the beat generation... as a child,.... we spoke of beatniks before there were hippies
alyonamil : i've heard that the name of kerouak was mentioned many times in discussions about xxth century
literarydiscussions: it is interesting the word beatnik, was prior to sputnik,... but has a russian flavor
alyonamil : sure, i heard about it
literarydiscussions: we must look at the origin of the word beatnik...
literarydiscussions: but... i am guessing... during the mcCarthy era, of communist witch hunts,... that the russian flavor of the word beatnik, connoted the antisocial aspect
literarydiscussions: that beatniks were enemies of capitalism and democracy (this is my conjecture)
alyonamil : i'm not interested in politics
literarydiscussions: but, one must look closely at Alan Watts, the first to write about and popularize Zen Buddhism for the west
literarydiscussions: but... to comprehend a phenomenon,... we must open our minds to all aspects and dimensions
literarydiscussions: this is my notion...
alyonamil : so, for me is useful to know the american critical view about beatniks
alyonamil : do they have anything common with salinger?
literarydiscussions: besides... suppose you take your route, of closing your minds to politics for one reason, and to alan watts, for some other reason.... well,... in the end,... you may have uncovered nothing novel or new
literarydiscussions: salinger was in my fathers 12 infantry division, as they landed at normandy, and liberated paris.... in the battle of the bulge, and hurtzgen forest....
alyonamil : i mean, that i'm not interested in the communist version of development
literarydiscussions: my father saw hemingway many times, but never met salinger...
alyonamil : because it was harmful for literature and international relations
literarydiscussions: you know... there is a wise saying, "We must learnt to understand what we see, rather than to see only what we understand..."
literarydiscussions: you are starting your journey, your inquiry, with preconceived notions, .... and i am simply trying to let my mind free,... to let memories and ideas emerge...
alyonamil : my great problem, is that i need too much to read
literarydiscussions: but, now i must spend extra energy to defend to you each emerging idea..... rather than continue on my flight of imagination....
literarydiscussions: you are filled with anxiety.... this is an impediment to your process of inquiry
alyonamil : it's easier to understand "1984", than anything, compared with beatniks
literarydiscussions: you have anxiety that you must not consider something which seems political.... you have anxiety that you have not read sufficiently
literarydiscussions: if you give me a chance, and some breathing space... i may be able to shed some light on the beatnik era/phenomenon .... certainly zen and alan watts played some role.... certain the cold war played some role.... and music... and poetry.... each a different dimension
literarydiscussions: but, i cannot wave a magic wand and produce a beatnik pill for you and say, "here, swallow this, and you shall know all about beatniks, in their essence, and it is free of politics and religion"
alyonamil : i'd better to read books
alyonamil : and then we'll discuss it
literarydiscussions: as you like...
alyonamil : i think, it's easier for me to talk about music festival of 1968
literarydiscussions: it is better to be driven by desire than by fear, if we must choose
alyonamil : i saw video tapes (documentary film about woodstock)
alyonamil : i like to read about 60's
literarydiscussions: i have seen such documentaries, and i lived through the 60s , in high school and in college
alyonamil : so may things happened in that period of xxth century
literarydiscussions: as a student of ancient greek, i foolished asumed that the work Utopia came from EU (well) + (topos), place, meaning a "Good Place",... and only recently did I discover that it comes from (OU=no) and Topos, meaning NOPLACE, or non existent place
alyonamil : do you know the series "liberty! the american revolution" (documentary film about franklin, washington and other heroes)?
alyonamil : we study latin this year.
literarydiscussions: i mention utopia, because i think beatniks and hippies were seeking escape from society, from life, and seeking some Utopia, some good place
alyonamil : but i have books about greek at home
alyonamil : bought for future studies
alyonamil : do you have a large library at home?
literarydiscussions: someone from india, recently asked me this: "If every novel has a PROTAGONIST, then, who or what is the ANTAGONIST, in Hardy's Far from the Madding Crowd"
literarydiscussions: her notion was that there must of necessity be some ANTAGONIST in every novel, if there is a hero or protagonist...
literarydiscussions: so.... i pointed to Ernest Hemingway's "Old Man and the Sea" and said.... who is the antagonist there....
literarydiscussions: obviously, the old fisherman is the hero protagonist....
literarydiscussions: well,.... in one sense, the sea and nature is the antagonist... which opposes....
literarydiscussions: but in a different sense, it is LUCK, fate, fortune.... which is the antagonist of the old fisherman
alyonamil : what's your opinion about holden caulfield?
literarydiscussions: but.. you see, when we look at beatniks, or hippies, or blacks in civil rights, or the russian revolution, or the McCarthy witchhunt... we must ask ourself who or what is the antagonist...
alyonamil : i think, we can organize an interesting correspondence and discuss literature and history
alyonamil : did you get something from "Catcher in the rye"?
literarydiscussions: it is very revealing to study the real life assassin of John Lennon, who was obsessed with "Catcher in the Rye" and Holden Caufield, to the extent that he recreated one day in the life of Holden, the day before he shot Lennon,... and then committed the murder,... and then, sat down on side walk
alyonamil : i don't like the russian translation of the title
literarydiscussions: pulled out a copy of catcher in the rye... and began to read, as he waited for police
alyonamil : nad propast'u vo rzhi
alyonamil : you mean the 1980?
literarydiscussions: that is the title
literarydiscussions: nad propastu vo rzhi
literarydiscussions: ?
alyonamil : sure
literarydiscussions: and ,... what does that become in english
literarydiscussions: that russian title
literarydiscussions: ?
alyonamil : it can't show the meaning of the book. one minute ....
literarydiscussions: that is ok...
alyonamil : above the abyss in the rye
alyonamil : it's the possible translation of russian version
literarydiscussions: you know, there is a novel , i will think of title in a minute.... with an english play on words... the "Under tow" (dangerous current in ocean to drown swimmers) becomes, in a child's mind, the "Undertoad" , a creature lurking under the water to cause trouble to people
literarydiscussions: but.... in norwegian tranlation, it was made into "under lobster".... and much meaning was lost
literarydiscussions: The World According to Garp, is the novel, i think
literarydiscussions: so... yes, the russian title greatly changes things....
literarydiscussions: you see, quite possibly, Salinger is playing upon a well known song, that I knew as a child.... "When a body meets a body, passin through the rye"
alyonamil : can you explain me the role of the catcher in the rye?
literarydiscussions: then a body greets a body, passin through the rye...
literarydiscussions: yes... i will try to explain...
alyonamil : i see. sure, i found the title of teh song in the book
alyonamil : where it's possible to find lyrics of this song?
literarydiscussions: one thing a time,... i can only type so fast
alyonamil : sorry, i wrote teh (planned to type the)
alyonamil : catcher is a player in a baseball, right?
literarydiscussions: look.... i will post this dialogue of ours at the message board, under A PERFECT DAY FOR BANANAFISH, which discusses salinger... then we can add to it in a concentrated and disciplines manner
literarydiscussions: because... all these little sentences and changes of topic in chat do not permit focus and depth
alyonamil : and he can't play in the rye, because grass is trimmed greatly
literarydiscussions: if we always skim about the surface,... turing this way and that way, in a frantic fashion, we shall never dig deeply, and tet to the bottom of things...
alyonamil : i don't think, it's a good idea to posat it anywhere
literarydiscussions: why, because everything scares you to death?
alyonamil : to post it anywhere
literarydiscussions: i can create a private forum, which only you and i can see... if you like
alyonamil : no, maybe i'm not too talkative
alyonamil : ok, it'll be better
literarydiscussions: how will there every be a great dialogue and exchange on the interent when everyone is scared to death to post anything, say anything..... and good grief? you can choose a name that no one will ever know....
literarydiscussions: so it is anonymous
alyonamil : sorry, my problem is that i lack in knowledge of american literature, because it's not always possible to find the right source
literarydiscussions: if you pick some random name.... then... our talk gets in search engines... and then, someone brilliant about salinger comes and posts something which opens our eyes
literarydiscussions: well, perhaps we shall create something of value about salinger at the message board and that shall become a source in the search engines, to attract students and teachers around the world....
alyonamil : struly that may change the surface of discussion
literarydiscussions: why are you so frightened of such a wonderful prospect... when you can remain totally anonymous?
alyonamil : i can try to send you one of my poems, if you don't mind
literarydiscussions: you ever other sentence and reaction, to each idea, is loaded with fear, driven by fear..... you have little hope of true learning and insight, if you are dirven in this fashion...
literarydiscussions: and, you cannot even stick to one topic..... one minute it is beatnick, then it is catcher int he rye, now it is your poem.... like a merry-go-round....
alyonamil : i'm not frightned - i need to learn too much.
literarydiscussions: you must try to focus....
alyonamil : no, it's not correct.
literarydiscussions: well... the jouney of 10,000 miles begins with a single step
alyonamil : i need to write about anything in common between beatniks and works of salinger
literarydiscussions: so... look... join the message board... pick some harmless name,..... like banana.... and join the bananafish forum.... and we will post there... and the ideas with grow... and develop
literarydiscussions: well, if you give me half a chance.... i can come up with a lot on that topic.... at the message board... with time to concentrate and post....
literarydiscussions: but... we are not going to get deep with little sentences in a chat room or PM
literarydiscussions: that is why students write long essays... to go deep, develop thoughts
alyonamil : but i can get titles of critical review and then read it in the offline

Sitaram · Site Admin Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 1079

http://www.spress.de/beatland/sce...e_arts/film/biennale/cat08ros.htm

The Beat legacy is difficult to determine at present because whenever something new and rebellious arises, corporate capitalism will attempt to render it harmless, sell it, and when the market dries up, destroy it. The Beats were a hard sell. It would not be easy to run an economy on the products the media tied to a caricature of the Beats - candles and chianti bottles and bongo drums. But Hollywood tried. And The Subterraneans was the result. To tell the truth, unlike On the road and The Dharma Bums, the novel The Subterraneans has not stood the test of time. It does seem self-indulgent and sloppy. But the movie was a disgrace. It display complete contempt for its subject and its characters and its audiance. It is difficult to say whether this contempt was conscious or not - that distinction does not always apply in Hollywood. was Herb Caen, the famous San Francisco columnist, who put the Yiddish diminutive "nik" at the end of Beat and coined the term "beatnik."s had the effect of making the Beats appear cute and samewhat silly, like a child wearing her mother's high-heeled shoes. It was these "beatniks" that Holliwood promoted, with their goatees, and pretensions, and their tendency to say "Man," and "Oh wow." I saw the later film, Heartbeat, which depicted the time when Kerouac was living with Neal and Carolyn Cassady, at a preview with Carolyn Cassady and her family.

The Beats, with their affinity for underdogs, were delighted to learn that the Japanese were possessed of an ancient and sophisticated tradition which emphasized moving away from the culture in which you were situated, moving inside yourself, sitting instead of doing, simplicity instead of consumerism, harmony with nature instead of technological mastery. Unlike the Biblical religions, Zen emphasized a practice and experience rather than belief.
My two favorite novelists at that time were Kerouac and Salinger. Their work spoke to me in a way which no other did. It portrayed young Americans who existed in a kind of perpetual adolescence because the adult culture offered no roles to them which were not diminishing, which did not threaten their soul. Like Huck Finn, Holden Caulfield and Jack Kerouac's characters formed a kind of counterculture, on the river, on the road, on the merry-go-round with your little sister, anything to keep from joining the petrified word of jaded adults which offered no viable paths toward wisdom or hope.
It was only years later that I realized that Slinger and Kerouac had been introducing Buddhism to the american novel. In fact, some of the other Oriental traditions as well. In my book, Zen in the Art of D.J. Salinger, I detailed how in The Catcher in the Rye, Holden actually followed the Buddha's life path, the privileged young man who came into contact with sickness, old age and death, and learned the first law of Buddhism, life is suffering . All is transient. Both Salinger's and Kerouac's heroes suffered the insecurities which adhere to young people with dead brothers. They, like myself at the time, could not see how one can proceed in life withou confroning the problem of death. Thus the two of them started ransacking the world's literature seeking answers, and their work constitutes a record of this journey, and a reading list for those who wish to follow. Interestingly, neither Salinger nor Kerouac ever finally let go of an image from their own culture, Jesus as a kind of archetypal God of love and mercy, outside of religious institutions and Biblical certainties and prohibitions.

http://www.rooknet.com/beatpage/info/info_chronology.html

A Cultural Chronology of Early Beat Generation Literature 1944-1960

1950

Lawrence Ferlinghetti, then Kenneth Patchen move to San Francisco; Gary Snyder, Lew Welch, and Philip Whalen at Reed College in Portland, Oregon; Rexroth conducting weekly soiree in San Francisco home; KPFA, Pacifica Foundation, first public radio, in Berkeley; Burroughs is writing novel Junkie. Kerouac's The Town & the City (Harcourt, Brace) treats life in working class Lowell, Mass. and New York City. He marries Joan Haverty for six months; travels to Denver then to Mexico to visit with Cassady to visit Burroughs.
Korean Police Action involvement, UN forces to be lead by General MacArthur; Senator Joeseph McCarthy charges Communist infiltration of State Department.
Broadway: Come Back, Little Sheba, The Cocktail Party
Films: All about Eve, The Asphalt Jungle Sunset Boulevard
Television: "You Bet Your Life"(Groucho Marx), "Your Hit Parade"
Music: Big Bands giving way to smaller groups-George Shearing, Count Basie.
Fiction: Faulkner's Collected Stories, Bradbury's The Martian Chronicles
Poetry: Pulitzer to Carl Sandburg's Complete Poems; books by Howard Nemerov, Delmore Schwartz, William Carlos Williams' Collecter Later Poems

1951

Korean War involvement; draft age lowered to 18; U.S. conducting tests of A-Bomb; suspected Russian spies the Rosenbergs are found guilty of treason and sentenced to death.
Ginsberg and Kerouac meet Gregory Corso in New York City; Kerouac writes initial draft of On the Road in three weeks, becomes interested in Buddhism; Burroughs accidentally shoots and kills his wife, Joan.
Broadway: The Rose Tattoo, The Moon Is Blue
Films: An American in Paris, A Place in the Sun
Television: "Your Show of Shows" with Sid Caesar and Imogene Coca; Kefauver crime hearings.
Music: Jazz figures: Charlie Parker, Sonny Rollins, Maynard Ferguson
Fiction: J.D. Salinger's The Catcher in the Rye.
Poetry: Pulitzer to Marianne Moore's Collected Poems; books by Adrienne Rich, Randall Jarrell, Theodore Roethke

1958

Lenny Bruce is performing at S.F. Hungry I, along with Beat comics Lord Buckley, Lou Gottlieb; Burroughs moves to Paris, London, Tangier (1958-1966); Cassady serves two year jail term in San Quentin for possession and sale of marijuana; Kerouac moves to Long Island with mother, publishes The Subterraneans and The Dharma Bums, begins work on Lonesome Traveler; Ferlinghetti's A Coney Island of the Mind (New Directions); Corso's broadside "Bomb" and book Gasoline (City Lights); Snyder returns to San Francisco, stays at East-West House with Lew Welch, Joanne Kyger, and others studying Zen; Snyder's "Cold Mountain Poems" of Han-Shan published in Evergreen Review; LeRoi and Hettie Jones begin to publish Yugen and Totem Press; Alan Watts's essay "Beat Zen, Square Zen, and Zen" appears in Chicago Review.
Strategic Air Command is formed; U.S. and USSR begin cultural exchanges; V.P. Nixon is stoned in Caracas while on Goodwill tour; Russian Sputnik III orbits Earth, brings on U.S. study of "Crisis in Education" in U.S.; conflicts in Beruit, Algeria, Hungary, China; Fidel Castro rebels seize capital in Cuba; John Kenneth Galbraith's The Affluent Society portrays materialism and conformity of U.S., argues for fair distribution of wealth to end poverty. Beat Generation art and lifestyle has cultural impact.
Broadway: MacLeish's J.B., O'Neil's A Touch of the Poet
Films: The Defiant Ones, Some Came Running, The Young Lions
Televison: "Naked City," "Peter Gunn," "The Rifleman"; David Susskind's "Open End"
Music: Kingston Trio help launch new Folk Music; first Monterey Jazz Festival; Duke Elington plays Carnegie Hall;
Fiction: Capote's Breakfast at Tiffany's, Barth's The End of the Road
Poetry: Pulitzer to Stanley Kunitz' Selected Poems, 1928-1958;books by Muriel Rukeyser, William Meredith, W.C. Williams' Patterson, Book V

1959

Castro takes Havanna, Batista flees; Pope John calls for Ecumenical Council; Khrushchev threatens U.S. with military superiority; Ike's call for on-site missile inspection is rejected; Laos asks for U.S. aid against North Vietnam; Ike and
Khrushchev meet at Camp David.

Broadway: Loraine Hansberry's A Raisin in the Sun; Gibson's The Miracle Worker, Paddy Chayefsky's The Tenth Man

Films: Room at the Top, Suddenly, Last Summer, On the Beach

Television: Top Quiz Shows exposed as pretense; "The Many Loves of Dobey Gillis" includes Beatnik Maynard G. Krebs; "The Twilight Zone," "The Late Show"

Music: Ornette Coleman's The Shape of Jazz to Come, Miles Davis and John Coltrane create "free jazz"; Rock 'n' Roll receives wide acceptance despite some protests of its moral corruption

Fiction: Roth's Goodbye Columbus and Five Short Stories, Kurt Vonnegut Jr.'s The Sirens of Titan, Leon Uris' Exodus; Allen Drury's Advise and Consent wins Pulitzer;

Poetry: Pulitzer to William Snodgrass' Heart's Needle; books by Robert Duncan, James Wright, Robert Lowell

Beatitude magazine edited by Bob Kaufmann, Ferlinghetti, et al; Rexroth turns on Beats, attacks them as pretenders; after Chicago Review is censored, Big Table publishes Burroughs' "Ten Episodes from Naked Lunch"; then book Naked Lunch is published by Olympia Press of Paris; Gary Snyder and Joanne Kyger marry in Japan in order to live together in Zen monastery;
his Riprap is published by Origin Press; Philip Whalen publishes Self-Portrait from Another Direction (Auerhahn Press);
Beat film Pull My Daisy is produced and directed by Robert Frank and Alfred Leslie, with Kerouac's narration and Ginsberg, Peter Orlovsky, and Corso; New Cinema follows Beat parallels of spontaneity and realism, example John Cassavetes' Shadows; Lew Welch meets Kerouac in S.F. and drives him to New York; Kerouac's Dr. Sax, Maggie Cassady and Mexico City Blues are published; Ginsberg records his Howl for Fantasy Records and is writing Kaddish. Articles on "The Beats" begin to appear in Time, Life, and in Lawrence Lipton's critical The Holy Barbarians; Michael McClure's Hymns to St. Geryon (Auerhahn); McClure directs production of his play The Feast! using beastial language and performed by Bay area poets and artists; Philip Lamantia's Ekstasis & Narcotica (Auerhahn); David Meltzer's Ragas; he and wife Christina are performing with folk music in S.F.; Ferlinghetti's "Tentative Descripion of a Dinner to Promote the Impeachment of President Eisenhower" read at Berkeley and receives cool response from some Beats as too politically involved. Ferlingheti responds with
quotes from Sartre on the need for engagement, concludes "Only the dead are disengaged."

Ferlinghetti and Ginsberg travel to Chile for South American Conference of Leftist writing; Ferlinghetti's surrealist novel Her (New Directions)

1960

1960

Blacks sit-in at Greensboro, North Carolina lunch counter; Russians and Fidel Castro sign economic agreement; U-2 reconnaissance jet is shot down by Russia; anti-U.S. demonstrations in Japan; Kennedy wins narrow election victory as president; Democrats sweep Congress.
Donald Allen publishes New American Poets anthology featuring many of the Beats; Burroughs begins using cut-up techniques in Minutes to Go and Exterminator; Kerouac tries futiley to write at Ferlinghetti's cabin in Bixby Canyon at Big Sur, makes friendships with Lew Welch and Leonore Kandel, Philip Whalen, and Ferlinghetti; Ginsberg in South America, at Harvard takes LSD with Timothy Leary, Proliferation of Beat writings: Snyder's Riprap and Myths and Tests (Totem/Corinth); Corso's The Happy Birthday of Death (New Directions); Whalen's Like I Say; (Totem/Corinth); Jack Spicer's After Lorca Poems; Philip Lamantia's Exstasis & Narcotica; writings about the Beats: Rexroth's Bird in the Hand: Essays; Elias Wilentz's The Beat Scene (Corinth); Thomas Parkinson prepares A Casebook on the Beat (Crowell); Seymour Krim's The Beats (Fawcett).
Broadway: Lillian Hellman's Toys in the Attic; Jean Anouilh's Becket; An Evening with Mike Nichols and Elaine May
Films: The Apartment, Psycho, Never on a Sunday, Spartacus
Television: Route 66, The Flintstones, Face the Nation, The Bob Newhart Show
Music: Dave Brubeck's Time Out, John Coltrane's Meditations
Fiction: William Styron's Set this House on Fire, John Updike's Rabbit, Run, Harper Lee's To Kill a Mockingbird
Poetry: books by James Dickey, Kenneth Koch, W.S. Merwin, Anne Sexton, Charles Olson, Denise Levertov

++++++++++++

1960 is the last entry in the time line.

As a child, I remember 1960 being the last time I saw much reference to "beatniks".

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2004/Jun/13/il/il02a.html

Zen, Japanese for meditation, is neither a religion nor a philosophy, and it's certainly not the beatnik perspective exhibited by writer Jack Kerouac in his novel "The Dharma Bums" of 1958. Rather, it is a discipline meant to facilitate the realization that clutching at life, or for that matter at definitions, only creates obstacles to the liberation that accompanies awakening.

http://downlode.org/etext/huxley_hesse_cybernetic.html

HESSE: PROTO-BEATNIK?

In 1922 Hesse wrote Siddhartha, his story of a Kerouac-Snyder manhood spent "on the road to Benares" performing feats of detached, amused, sexy one-upmanship.

In the June issue of Playboy magazine, the Islamic yogic-master Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (Noble and Powerful Servant of Allah) summarizes with his legendary cool the life stages he has experienced. Abdul-Jabbar has obviously studied Hesse, since he uses Bead Game fugue techniques to weave together the strands of his biography: basketball, racism, religion, drugs, sex, jazz, politics. "... in my senior year in high school," says Abdul-Jabbar, "I started reading everything I could get my hands on - Hindu texts, Upanishads, Zen, Hermann Hesse - you name it.

"Playboy: 'What most impressed you?

"Abdul-Jabbar: Hesse's Siddhartha. I was then going through the same things that Siddhartha went through in his adolescence, and I identified with his rebellion against established precepts of love and life. Siddhartha becomes an aesthetic man, a wealthy man, a sensuous man - he explores all these different worlds and doesn't find enlightenment in any of them. That was the book's great message to me, so I started to develop my own value system as to what was good and what wasn't."

Siddhartha (and Abdul-Jabbar) were not the only Hesse heroes to "develop their own value systems." The star of Hermann's next book took self-actualization to the limit.

http://www.well.com/~mareev/TIMELINE/list00-60.text

1957 Aug 29
Civil Rights Act (first civil rights legislation since 1875) passed

Sept
On The Road finally published and becomes bestseller (6 weeks on the bestseller list) (almost titled The Beat Generation) Kerouac refuses television series; instead Route 66 started Herb Caen coins term "beatnik" (Hettie Jones: "after Sputnik")

Sept Howl obscenity trial: ruled not obscene on Oct. 3

Sept Russians launch first satellite Sputnik; US responds with increased emphasis on science education in schools [but see Oct4

Sept 4 Little Rock, Arkansas: nine Negro students try to attend
Central High; Governor Orval Faubus orders National Guard to prevent them

http://people.cohums.ohio-state.edu/childs1/Chronology1944-1961.htm

1957

Dr. Seuss Publishes The Cat in the Hat

New York Giants move to San Francisco; Brooklyn Dodgers move to Los Angeles

“Beatnik” used to describe “Beat Generation” counterculture movement

5.2% unemployment (Dec)

U.S. Treasury begins adding IN GOD WE TRUST to all currency (coins, in an intermittent fashion, had the motto since the Civil War)

Births per thousand begin decline, signaling decline of “Baby Boom” (c. 1963/1964 ended)

European Economic Community Established

Sitaram · Site Admin Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 1079

http://poetry-magazine.com/poetry/poetry-006/07page.htm

Sitaram · Site Admin Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 1079

mahendra_ku: hi
literarydiscussions: hello there, friend
mahendra_ku: yes
mahendra_ku: sitaram
mahendra_ku: now witnessing new challanges
mahendra_ku: working on tribal education
literarydiscussions: today i was helping a college student in moscow write about J.D. Salinger and the Beatnik era (1940-1960)
mahendra_ku: preparing position paper for the state
mahendra_ku: oh Bitneak era in europe?
mahendra_ku: they are also called Goliard?
literarydiscussions: in USA
mahendra_ku: oh
literarydiscussions: i am not familiar with term "Goliard"
mahendra_ku: ma be
mahendra_ku: inone paper i was reading
mahendra_ku: they are hippy
literarydiscussions: i posted my thoughts and google finds at message board in "Salinger - A Perfect Day for Bananafish" forum
literarydiscussions: well, beatnik came first, prior to 1960... then hippy came afterwards, after 1960
mahendra_ku: oh
mahendra_ku: i will se it now
literarydiscussions: beatnik and hippy are very different, two different eras, movements.... though related somehow
mahendra_ku: oh i see
literarydiscussions: beatnik was uniquely buddhist (zen)... hippy was related to hindu (hare krishna)
mahendra_ku: is it?
mahendra_ku: aha
literarydiscussions: prabhupad came to manhattan in the 1960s
mahendra_ku: and then hippy movement startedthere?
literarydiscussions: remember, hippy is called flower child
mahendra_ku: yes there is a hindi film
mahendra_ku: hare krishna hare ram
literarydiscussions: well,... it is more complex than that.. but certainly.... part of the dynamics was hindu i think
mahendra_ku: we in 1970s were used to keep long hair and used to take ganja in our city
mahendra_ku: people were called us hippy cut hair
literarydiscussions: and, the hippys like sitar music, and the nehru jacket, i think
mahendra_ku: yes
literarydiscussions: ravi shankar was popular
mahendra_ku: bell bottom pant
mahendra_ku: ganja
mahendra_ku: guitar
mahendra_ku: dance
literarydiscussions: yes.... marijuana
mahendra_ku: both boys and girls
literarydiscussions: beatniks were not dancers,.... i do not think.. this is significant
mahendra_ku: marijuana was also poular
mahendra_ku: we havenot seen this
literarydiscussions: perhaps, one could divide/categorize beatnik and hippy as Saivite vs Vaishnav.... and as Jnani vs Bhakti
literarydiscussions: in the 1950s,.... Alan Watts in England was the first to popularize Zen Buddhism to the west, and this influenced people like Jack Kerouak, who wrote Dharma Bums
mahendra_ku: sitaram I am a local folklorist and have no idea on world literature movement
literarydiscussions: each group sought to escape what they saw as the evils of their world/reality, and enter into an alternate reality...
mahendra_ku: you all are so knowledgable
literarydiscussions: excuses do not conquer wildernesses
mahendra_ku: and I feel that I cant gather so much knowledge
literarydiscussions: if we are explorers, we must take out our machete, begin cutting at the foliage, and forge ahead
mahendra_ku: because i have been in ascholarship which demands much time
literarydiscussions: if we spend our energy worrying about how little we know,... then we shall not be engaged in learning more
mahendra_ku: thatis true
mahendra_ku: life problems also
literarydiscussions: do not worry about academia, and public opinion, and critics, and reputation.... just forge ahead in your secret anonymous world
mahendra_ku: but when we have wil l we have way
literarydiscussions: on the interent
literarydiscussions: on the internet

Sitaram · Site Admin Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 1079

alyonamil : how's your studies of literature?

literarydiscussions: i am writing at this very moment about the movie Breakback Mountain, and the original short story which appeared in The New Yorker Magazine

literarydiscussions: you can read my posts here :

http://www.thebookforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9475

alyonamil : that's interesting.

alyonamil : never had a chance to watch the film

alyonamil : we talked before. i suppose, several weeks ago.

alyonamil : the theme of discussion was 'salinger and the beat generation'

literarydiscussions: aha, yes, i remember

alyonamil : i already completed my report. if you don't mind, i'd like to ask you 2 or 3 questions.

literarydiscussions: ok

alyonamil : i hope, today, you'll not post our talk anywhere in the forum. all right?

literarydiscussions: actually... if you dislike that idea... then i prefer not to chat... since it is my aim to post interesting things...

literarydiscussions: so, if you dont like being public... then, beware of the internet

literarydiscussions: the internet is a very public place.... if you like secrets, then dont tell anyone... and it remains a secret

alyonamil : i'm not afraid of internet. there's lot of good forums about literature, where it's possible to find a new book, opinion and so on

alyonamil : I suppose, it depoends on the person

literarydiscussions: look... i am very busy, and i dont have time for this.... if you want to talk to me... but dont like talks posted... then dont talk to me.. because it means i spend time and energy, and have nothing to show for it.... nothing to share with others, or the reading public...

alyonamil : all right. can you tell me, is zen buddhism the connecting point between writings of salinger and beat generation?

literarydiscussions: that is quite possible, ... difficult to prove conclusively... but quite possibly true

literarydiscussions: and one should look at the writings of alan watts in the 1950s

alyonamil : because, as it's know from the critical reviews salinger studied buddhism and negotiated with his personal mentor from time to time

literarydiscussions: which introduces zen to the west

literarydiscussions: salinger injects buddhism, hinduism, and ancient greek orthodoxy into his writings

literarydiscussions: Teddy, the hindu holy man reborn...

literarydiscussions: Franny & Zooey, with the Jesus Prayer of the Heart (philokalia)

literarydiscussions: i think salinger like to exploit what was at that time exotic

literarydiscussions: in order to attract attention

alyonamil : and beat generation found in buddhism the way of escapism from the cold war, h-bomb and another troubles of 50's

alyonamil : have you read "seymour: an introduction"?

literarydiscussions: i dont think so.... it has been so many years...

alyonamil : all right. what's your favorite period in literature nowadays?

alyonamil : better to mention what kind of literature do you study nowadays?

literarydiscussions: my mind doesnt really work in that fashion.. that question has no real meaning for me.... people come to me with a problem, a question, like the person I am helping with Brokeback Mountain,... and that question or problem opens up into a world

literarydiscussions: I am looking at Umberto Eco's essays on "Literature", which explores that dimension of literature which attracts me

alyonamil : i heard that umberto eco used words from old books in the "name of the rose", and there were no thoughts of his own.

literarydiscussions: people say nasty things about lincoln, gandhi, and jesus, ... what can i tell you.... your best bet is to read him yourself and form your own opinions

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