 |
literarydiscussions.myfreeforum.org
Literature, Poetry, Essays, Dialogues, Philosophy, Theology
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Sitaram
Site Admin
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 1079
|
 Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:54 am Post subject: Purgatory and Illation |
 |
|
| Quote: |
It is so simple to be happy,
and so difficult to be simple. - Anonymous
|
You ask an interesting question. Thanks for asking, and for your time and
interest.
For any qood question like this, there is possible a long and complex,
detailed answer, as well as a short, summary answer.
I shall try to summarize the reasons first, and then afterwards give the
details.
To understand why I left Orthodoxy, it is necessary to understand why I
became Orthodox. Raised with no religious training, I was gradually
attracted to Greek Orthodoxy in my early 20s, after graduating from St.
Johns Great Books program in Annapolis. I felt I had discovered the
absolute, original, one true Christian religion, still using the original
patristic Greek language of the Gospels. I gradually drifted away from it
in my 40s as I began to see internal doctrinal and political conflicts
between various Greek and Russian groups and various historical
problems with Orthodoxy. I was disappointed or disillusioned by what I
though was the absoluteness of Orthodoxy. I was also disappointed with
my own nature and character, for I felt that I lacked the qualities of
personality and volition necessary to live up to the ideals of Orthodox
Christianity.
I have some chores to do at the moment, but I would like to return to this
post and relate some of the interesting details of my gradual conversion
and gradual alienation over a twenty year period.
In the meanwhile, until I return, those of you who have some interest and
some time to spend may visit highlights of the evolution of my thoughts
over the past 8 years which illustrate in detail how my beliefs evolved.
http://www.members.aol.com/Sitaram
or
http://www.sitaram.0catch.com
These writings began in 1998 as a Geocities site entitled "Hinduism and
Interfaith Dialogues".
About six years ago, I began using a Yahoo egroup email listserve
http://www.egroups.com/group/Sitaram
For the past year, I have been using a phpbb message board (click the
Discussions gif in my signature)
Cardinal Newman, himself a convert from the Anglican to the Roman
confession, coined the useful term "illation" to denote the gradual process
of experiences over a period of years which may gradually lead an
individual to a conviction of faith. The novel "Brideshead Revisited" by
Evelyn Waugh is a perfect illustration of the process of illation in the life of
the protagonist, Charles Ryder (played in the 10 hour movie version by
Jeremy Irons) who in the end becomes a Roman Catholic.
Rome was not built in a day, nor did it decline and fall in a day, nor may
the reasons for the rise and fall be given in an hour,as Gibbon illustrates
in his opus, twenty years in the making.
The truth in such is to be found somewhere between Proust's detail and
Andy Rooney's brevity.
Having posted the above, I visited your profile to review your past 50
posts, so I might gain some understanding of your position and point of
view in asking, and I discovered:
| Quote: |
Specifically, the bow Zosmia offers Dmitri in their first meeting that sends
him fleeing, and Dmitri's specific request to bow to Katerina? (Or will this
make itself clearer later?)
Hahaha I bowed 127 times yesterday at church for the start of lent.
Liturgy has about 60 bows in it on average (in russian orthodoxy you
stand the entire service) :P. The bow is a sign of respect and is an eastern
(chinese and russian) thing. In russian orthodoxy there is actually 3 types
of bows and 2 types of prostrations.
|
Now that I have a little insight into your circumstances, may I mention a
worderful paperback entitled "Starets Ambrosy as a Model for Staretz
Zossima in Doestoevsky's Brothers Karamazov." Elder (Staretz)
Amvrosy was the real-life priest-monk that Doestoevsky met and quite
possibly used as a model for the fictional character of Zossima.
Zossima's account, in the novel, of his gradual conversion to monastic
resolve is yet another illustration of the process of illation.
I have known in my life several monastics who spent 20 or more years in
their vows, and then, underwent a reverse process, becoming
disenchanted, or perhaps losing heart, and leaving their vows to return to
secular life.
No question stands alone and absolute, but is framed by a questioner, an
individual who is very familiar with certain things, and perhaps very
unfamiliar with other matters. It is the dynamics of this familiarity and
unaquaintance which give the question its spin and casts a certain hue
upon the answer.
Here is an account I wrote regarding the person and book that set me on
my path to monastic life:
| Quote: |
When I was 23, I began attending an "Old Calendarist" Russian Orthodox
Church. Every Sunday, I would pick up an elderly Russian widow by the
name of Maria Haralampavna von Tiesenhausen. As an interesting bit of
trivia, the book
"Starets Amvrosy, Model for Dostoevsky's Staretz Zossima", by John
B. Dunlop (Library of Congress Catalog Number 78-189483, Nordland
Press), is dedicated to Maria's late husband, Nikolai Fyodorovitch. It
was my reading of Maria's copy of that book which gave me the desire to
enter an orthodox monastery.
Maria spoke only Russian, so I had to learn a bit of Russian for us to
communicate.
On Sundays, after church, we would return to her apartment and she
would prepare a lunch, and we would chat.
She was a most interesting person. She had childhood memories of St.
Petersburg before the Russian revolution. Her husband had been an
accomplished pianist (specializing in Chopin) and had been an instructor
at Yale University.
One day after lunch, she brought out from a closet a shoebox filled with
photographs from her life. There were photographs from her childhood
and youth, and photographs of her late husband. She really had a
wonderful, interesting life, a very full life which was blessed in many ways
and yet had its share of suffering. After she finished showing me all the
photographs and telling some of the history behind them, held up the
shoebox, sighed, and exclaimed "Garbage (Bwibrashenia in Russian),...
once I die, this will all go in the garbage". She had no surviving relatives
who might value any of those photographs, or find meaning in keeping
them.
Maria passed away in the 1980's. Like Maria, I also have my own
"shoebox" filled with mementos and memories from my life. I too am
plagued by the thought that one day soon, that "shoebox" will go in the
garbage.
Each of us has such a "shoebox" and it is a source of both joy and
suffering for us.
|
As you can see, my own "shoebox" is filled with the souvenirs of years of
illation followed by years of de-illation (if I may be permitted to coin that
term).
I fully realize that this post is straying from the original topic of Purgatory,
but, may I point out that the nascence and evanescence of the doctrine
and theology of Purgatory itself is an example of illation and de-illation on
a grand historical scale. Culture is the macrocosm and the individual is
the microcosm. Plato, in The Republic starts out by examining the nature
of the soul, and then decides that the State is the soul "written large" and
might reflect the nature of the soul in a more palpable manner. Hobbes
follows suit in his Leviathan and describes society as a meta-person, much
like our legal notion of a corporation as a fictive or virtual person with
certain rights and responsibilities.
Jonathan Swift (of Gulliver's Travels fame) once wrote: "There is just
enough religion in the world to make everyone hate each other, but not
enough religion to make everyone love one another."
Swift tells us of the Big-endians and Little-endians, two sects at war over
the proper way to break their hard-boiled egg. When Gulliver asks the
source of this dispute, they point to a passage in their divinely revealed
scripture which says "Break thy egg where thou wilt."
This dispute is analogous to the differing opinions on the proper position of
a roll of paper in the bathroom dispenser: some insist that the paper feed
from the bottom of the dispenser at its back, while others insist that the
paper feed from the top and front of the dispenser. In the final analysis,
both ways are simply paper and hygiene.
A zen master once said: "The distance between heaven and hell is the
bredth of a single hair." That single hair is Purgatory, which both exists
and does not exist, alternating between being and non-being haloed in
kaleidoscopic quantum glow.
Another book which made a great impression upon me, in the mid 1990's,
was "The History of Heresy" by David Christie-Murray, who started his
book while he was an Anglican minister, and, some years after its
completion, was so transformed by his labor that he became a Quaker.
This book states on page one that the history of heresy IS the history of
Christian doctrine (which we may confirm by reading the 5 volumes of
Jaroslav Pelican's "Development of Christian Doctrine"). At the end of his
book, on the last page, Christie-Murray quotes a certain Anglican Bishop
who said: "Perhaps the only heresy is that there was ever any dogma to
begin with."
What follows is something I wrote several years ago which nicely
illustrates the process of illation and de-illation both in individuals and in
history:
| Quote: |
Some Protestant Christian denominations spend FAR TOO much time and
energy discussing rapture/tribulation/endtimes theology & the Book of
Revelation! I feel such energy is misplaced and detracts from the
fundamental day to day task of Christians to "work out their salvation with
fear and trembling" as St. Paul says in Phillip. 2:12
Christ said "sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof",... and mentions
"redeeming the time", and "no man knoweth the day or hour". For most
Christians, the day of their death is what they should be more concerned
with,... rather than "last times" theology, since only the final several
generations of mankind will ever see the "last days".
Of course, so many "Protestants" do not even believe that one should
"work out their salvation with fear & trembling". They incorrectly assume
that they are "saved" already, and that nothing can happen to jeapardize
their salvation. Given this false sense of security in their "once saved,
always saved" beliefs, it is quite curious how they fret and stew about the
Tribulation far more that Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodox, who
believe that "the judgment of God is a mystery to man" and that we must
daily "work out our salvation with fear and trembling".
St. Paul, in I Cor. 9:27 says "I constantly discipline my body lest, having
preached to others, I MYSELF should become disqualified".... which sounds
to me like Paul realizes that it is theoretically possible for him to
"backslide" and loose his salvation...
I contrast "Protestants" with Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox who
believe that "Faith" and "Works" go hand-in-hand in the process of
"Salvation"... though Protestants will often criticize the Catholic/Orthodox
views on "Works" as "semi-Pelagianism".
For me, the verse which says of God "I will have MERCY UPON WHOM I
will have mercy", contains within it the implication that those who ASSUME
they are "saved" may in fact NOT be saved.
Otherwise, why would Christ denounce those who protest "Lord, Lord, we
worked MIRACLES in your name", saying "I NEVER KNEW YOU". And how
puzzling are Christ's words "I never knew you". Is not God the "only
knower of hearts". Is not Jesus REALLY in fact saying rather "YOU never
knew ME" (i.e. your theology and doctrines describes a FALSE CHRIST).
But then, consider what Christ says about friendship with Him: "Ye are my
friends IF ye do as I say".
Everyone should try to read Jaroslav Pelikan's 5 volume paperback series
"The History & Development of Christian Doctrine" as well as David
Christie-Murray, "The History of Heresy".
False doctrines and false beliefs cannot save, but only give people a false
sense of security and complacency.
Stop and consider, Protestant Theologian John Calvin paints himself and
his followers into a corner with DOUBLE PREDESTINATION, saying that
some are predestined to damnation, despite whatever they do, while
others are predestined IRRESISTABLY to salvation, despite whatever they
might choose to do through free will.
By contrast, the early theologin, Origin, paints the opposite picture, that
ALL SHALL BE SAVED.
Common sense tells us that EITHER doctrine can lead to complacency in
day to day life.
Anyone who truly believes that they shall be DAMNED despite their free
will choices.... or SAVED despite their free will choices, will be complacent,
either from dispair, in the case of the first, or a false sense of security, in
the case of the second.
And yet John Calvin's primary motive in his doctrine of "double
predestination", is the emphasis he places on God's ABSOLUTE
SOVEREIGNTY... and the notion that if our human free-will plays any role
in the final outcome, that God's SOVEREIGNTY will somehow be
diminished or compromised.
By contrast, only the Bhagavad-Gita (and some other scriptures),
portrays God as so open minded, that all forms of worship are accepted,
even from those ignorant of God's nature, and that all souls are as fruit
ripening, given countless chances, through rebirth, until all are perfected.
One reader comments: If free moral agency is indeed freedom, why then
can we not do that which is good?
I reply: Excellent point you make.... but I merely bring up Calvin's
doctrines to point out the importance of a scholarly investigation of the
implications of any given theology, that it can indeed be important to the
question of salvation.
A reader brings up the issue of "Understanding":
My reply: You raise an interesting topic,.... regarding the "supernatural
impartation of understanding".
The Roman "west" and the Greek "east" went in opposite directions on the
question of the relationship between "faith/belief" and "understanding".
In Aquinas' Summa Theologica, he raises the question "Which comes first,
Faith or Understanding?"
He considers the pros and cons, in light of Aristotle and St. Paul, and
concludes, "UNDERSTANDING comes first... and Faith follows as a RESULT
of that understanding".
But, in the Philokalia,..... St. Maximus the Confessor, draws the OPPOSITE
conclusion, namely that FAITH comes FIRST, as a GIFT, given by God, on
the basis of God's FOREKNOWLEDGE of our free will choices, as to what
we shall do with the gift.
In the EASTERN ORTHODOX concept of election, God's foreknowledge in
relation to man's free will cooperation, is more involved than the western
understanding of these issues, as is clearly illustrated by the dialogue
between Jesus and Peter concerning Peter's betrayal/denial.
You see... Christ, as "pre-eternal Logos", from the vantage point of the
pre-eternal NOW, outside of the maxtrix of time/space causality, SEES the
FREE-WILL choice of Peter to deny, yet that FOREKNOWLEDGE in no way
ROBS Peter of that freedom exercised at that FUTURE moment, which is
still PRESENT to Peter (in a relativistic sense) at the point that he
exercises his free will.
It is essential to realize WHY , when that moment actually arrives, and the
rooster crows twice,.... PETER'S mind is clouded, and he does not
remember Christ's words UNTIL AFTER HE UTTERS his words of denial
Were Peter to have remembered Christ's words BEFORE Peter denies...
THEN PETER WOULD HAVE BEEN ROBBED of his free will choice, since it
was that very FREE WILL CHOICE which the pre-eternal Logos SAW from
that vantage point outside of time-space. Hence, it was essential that God
cloud Peter's memory so that Peter would forget Christ's prophecy, and
exercise his actual free-will choice. We may observe that this "clouding" of
Peter's memory is actually an excellent but rare example in wester
theology of the protective role which Maya (Illusion) plays.
|
Without further ado, I should keep the promise I made earlier in this
thread and share with you an account of Purgatory found in the
apologetics of Albert J. Nevins, MM in "Answering a Fundamentalist" (ISBN
0-87973-433-7)
| Quote: |
Chapter 11, Purgatory, page 88
Purgatory is one of the most vehement arguments used against the
[Roman Catholic] Church by fundamentalists, particularly in attempts to
convert Catholics. The argument is rooted in the fact that the word
purgatory is never mentioned in the Bible, although exactly what that
proves, particularly if such a place is described, is not clear. You will not
find the word "Trinity mentioned in the Bible, but the Trinity is a
fundamental Christian doctrine, as is the Incarnation, another word
unknown from Scripture. Fundamentalists believe in heaven and hell as
do Catholics, but the Church goes a step beyond and says there is also an
intermediate place of atonement and purification called purgatory.
God forgives, but God does not forget. What God knows, He knows for all
eternity. God forgives our sins through our repentance, but at the same
time He demands reparation for these offenses. Hence, we have to
distinguish between forgiveness and atonement. It is like a boy who hits
a ball through his parents' window while playig baseball. He tells his
mother that he is sorry. She replies, "I know you didn't do it on purpose,
so you are forgiven. However, you were careless and I expect you to pay
for a new window out of your allowance." She does this because it is just
and she wishes to teach her son responsibility for his acts. Reparation
for sin is one way God teaches us responsibility. When God is offended
by our acts, His mercy will bring us forgiveness but His justice demands
atonement, which, if not done in this life, must be done in the next before
entering heaven. This place of atonement is called purgatory, the place
where one is purged or cleansed of the remnants of sin.
[The Book of] Revelation 21:27 tells us that nothing unclean shall enter
heaven. Jesus reveals that only a the pure of heart shall see God.
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Join! (free) 
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
