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Sitaram · Site Admin Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 1079

http://forums.thebookforum.com/showthread.php?p=126062#post126062

One reader writes:

Many works have been written with religion as an entrenched theme. In
fact it's arguably one of the most common themes in literature, it's just
not as common in modern lit. At least not that I've noticed but I'm hardly
qualified to make that judgment. Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Steinbeck etcetera
ad nauseum all have used religion as a major theme. Many of these
authors were educated in very religious settings, attended church or other
places of worship regularly and were devoutly religious at some point.
The audiences of these works originally were, I'm assuming, similarly
educated. This is not as common today, or at least it wasn't for me and
the majority of those around me, so the subtext of these works will pass
me by.

Granted I'm not bright enough and unlikely to ever become well read
enough to get everything I read but I don't like the idea of reading a book
and not being coherent of a major theme. Problem is religion as a theme
is more complicated than other themes to investigate. Especially if you're
agnostic or even just disinterested. Somehow I doubt a quick scan of The
Bible for Dummies is gonna cut it and I'm not sure I would make it
through a real bible. How do you non-religious or uneducated religious
readers tackle this theme?

From your post about East of Eden I feel I really do not have the religious
knowledge to read that book yet. Same now goes for Life of Pi. Both I am,
or maybe was, looking forward to reading soon but I don't want to if I'm
going to be missing what the authors are trying to say.

My problem is really simple. I want to be reading great books not studying
religions. Some might say religious books, the Bible, Koran, etc, are
great books but I'm not one of them. I want the knowledge without the
work.

Sitaram replies:

Perhaps the thing for you to do is to just plunge into "East of Eden". I can
try to reread my copy. We can post questions and footnotes in the
Steinbeck thread. There is no magic bullet which will suddenly fill us with a
deep background in the Old Testament, or any other scripture.

Yet, if we were totally ignorant of the Greek myth Daedalus, then how
much would we miss out on in Joyce's novel with the character of that
name?

I am pleased to attempt to help in whatever way I can, either through
posts to threads in this forum, or in private correspondence.

I shall make every effort to respect the forum rules regarding discussions
of religion.

I shall post an excerpt here from "If Boo is God" regarding the possibility
of a religious theme in "To Kill a Mockingbird". It is not at all clear that
there IS such a religious them in the book, intentionally placed there by
Harper Lee. But, the tread gives a taste of what it is like to bring theology
to bear upon a literary work.

I think Readings on Religions is a catchy title (RON for short, or R&R).

I will try to list those reference books which might give someone a
foundation in comparative religions in order to approach literature which
has a religious dimension.

Jaroslav Pelikan 5 volumes (paperback) "The History and Development of
Christian Doctrine" ... breathtaking, scholarly but for the layperson, no
ideological axes to grind or hidden agendas.

"The History of Heresy" 1 vol paperback, by David Christie-Murray (on
Christian sectarianism)

Huston Smith - "World Religions" (one volume, paperback)

Bill Moyers interview with Joseph Campbell - "The Power of Myth"
(available in video and book form)

Carl Jung - "Man and His Symbols" (one volume, paperback)

"What the Buddha Taught" - Walpole Rahula

"Everyday Zen" - Charlotte Joko Beck

Klaus K. Klostermaier - Survey of Hinduism - SUNY Press

"Islamic Invasion" by Robert Morey ISBN 0-89081-983-1

(I am at work, so I will return to add books for Islam, Hinduism, Islam,
Judaism, et al)

A prince in ancient times once complained to his tutor about the terrible
labor of learning Euclid. The tutor replied "There is no royal road to
geometry."

I see your situation. I will continue to compile a sort of reading list, in the
previous post, for those who may be interested. But, I shall try to put
together some various excerpts which might serve as "Comparative
Religion for Dummies" or "101", in a nutshell; something which someone
could read in just a few hours and get some kind of orientation.

I shall pretend that the entire population of the earth has been destroyed
through some natural calamity, and I am the sole survivor. Aliens land
(who miraculously speak English) and ask if I would please write down
from memory everything I can recall about the religions of humanity, in
ten pages or less.

Actually, this is a little game we played in college, called "The earth is
suddenly destroyed and aliens come and kindly request..."

It was a cheap trick to get ourselves to write essays and term papers, but
it worked.

I know, I shall make it into a sci-fi short story, and post it in the sci-fi
section (or creative writing). And since it is only a story, I can spew all the
religious talk I please, and no one shall be offended, or any the wiser.

(This may take me until Sunday night, but, as soon as I have something
of interest, I shall post as a "work in progress")

By the way, you might want to take a look at this post, since it has a lot to
do with religion in literature and literature in religion:

http://forums.thebookforum.com/show...4253#post124253

I have been thinking about you and your question since Friday. I was
wondering if you would post again. Obviously it is weighing heavily upon
your mind.

I am glad you brought this up, since you reminded me to list another book
in my previous post of the list of books I suggest to help people gain
some foundation for appreciating allusions to religion within literature.

That Book is "Islamic Invasion" by Robert Morey ISBN 0-89081-983-1

By the way, if you read only one book from my list, then make that
"World Religions" by Huston Smith. That is the most painless and efficient
way to get a quick foundation of sorts.

I do not recommend that someone read through the Qu'ran purely for the
sake of appreciating something like "The Satanic Verses" by Salman
Rushdie.

Let me tell you a little story, a true story, about when I was in High
School, and a teacher suggested that I read "The Alexandrian Quartet;
Justine, Balthazar, Mount Olive and Clea" by Lawrence Durrell. Those
novels opened up a whole other word for a 17 year old young man. As I
remember, everything was set in Alexandria, Egypt in the early part of
the 19th century.

The novels were not about religion per se, but did make a few references
to Islam.

You know, I confess to being a dreadful speller. I had to google just now
(the lazy man's dictionary) on Lawrence DuRReLL to avoid spelling his
name incorrectly. I noticed that a movie was made of Justine

http://movies2.nytimes.com/gst/movi...html?v_id=26863

I have not seen it but would enjoy seeing it very much since I enjoyed the
books so much as a teenager.

By the way, since I just mentioned google.com and posted a link, I must
say that I see no reason in the world why you could not acquire some of
the background you desire by reading the proper selection of web pages.
There are so many essays and synopses of all the religions, as well as
essays on various novels like East of Eden which will explain various
religious aspects.

Anyway, back to my anecdote from high school. There was one scene
which stuck in my mind. I can't remember now which of the four novels
this scene was in, but that’s not important. Durrell describes some Muslim
business men who hire a muzzine to recite for them various passages
from the Qu'ran. Those businessmen weep as they listen to the beauty of
the recitation.

Well, I was most impressed. I decided that I knew absolutely nothing
about Islam or the Qu'ran, but I must go out at once and purchase a
translation and read it cover to cover. I purchased a translation of the
Koran (an alternate spelling popular in the 1940s through 60s) by
Muhammed Marmaduke Pickthall.

Speaking of translations of the Qu'ran, there are so many available on the
Internet for free, that you may read on-line, or download as text, if you
are bound and determined to read through it.

I purchased the Pickthall translation in my Senior year of high school.
That Summer, before I left for St. John's in Annapolis, I sat with a pen in
hand, and read the Qu'ran cover to cover, marking each and every
unfamiliar word, and looking it up in the dictionary. I still have that
original paperback copy.

I am very glad for my experience in reading it, but I must admit that I
was never once brought to tears by the beauty of it. I am told that the
real beauty lies in reading it in the original Arabic, so I am told.

I was extremely curious all of my life regarding religions and scriptures
and prayer and worship precisely because my parents, who were nominal
Protestants, never once brought me to a house of worship of any kind.

One of the greatest benefits for any child, in attending Sunday school, is
that they are less likely to go through life as a religious fanatic, in a
crazed search for proverbial truth and beauty.

I understand, Ion, what you are saying about the deplorable effects of
religions in world history. But one may equally well make the same sort of
observations about government and politics.

Let us explore an kind of analogy, if you will. I shall discuss the pros and
cons of politics in human history, and we shall experiment with how
accurate it is to substitute the word religion into those same statements
and observations.

We may start with Aristotle's famous statement that "Man is by nature a
political animal;" an imitative political animal with logos (speech and
reason).

http://www.artsci.lsu.edu/fai/Facul...i/Fh/ARhet.html

We can certainly go on for hours and hours, I imagine, about the evils
government kings and tyrants and dictators have wrought throughout
human history. But we can equally go on for hours about all the benefits
of political organization. It is not fair or accurate to say that human
political activity is evil or unnecessary simply because it has been
misused.

There is an ancient Greek account of a city which begged Solon to come
and give it laws.

Now, often we find the law troublesome and annoying, perhaps even
unfair, but life without law and enforcement and courts is far more
troublesome and dangerous.

It is ironic that, at this very moment, as I add to this post, a college
student in her 4th year has PM’ed me in AOL. She first contacted me 6
years ago with various "theological questions." Just now, I replied to her:
"It seems to me that people go through life seeking some human
embodiment of truth which will not betray or disappoint them. Some seek
it in a religious leader, others in a political leader, yet others in an
intellectual leader."

She first contacted me six years ago to ask, "What is purity?"

We had a long conversation, in which I said, "Purity is to pass through all,
experience all, become all, yet cling to nothing, and remain untainted."

Is my statement philosophical? Is my statement religious? One might be
tempted to say, at first glance, that my statement is anything but political.
And yet, there is a way I might argue that my statement is a political
one. Someone made the statement that part of the greatness of George
Washington was his willingness to return to private life after his term in
office, rather than to cling to that position of power. Such humility, if you
will, not to cling, is a form of political purity. Gandhi certain entered into
political life, and yet one sees that same sort of purity. Einstein was
offered the position of prime minister in the newly formed state of Israel,
but declined the honor, explaining that he was better suited to the life of a
scientist than to the life of a political leader.

My father was close friend with one of the many vice presidents of a large
pharmaceutical and cosmetic company, whom I shall call Jason, though
that is not his name. Jason was a devout Catholic with a large family of
six children. Jason's work required him to travel often and attend many
conventions. At one convention, he had occasion to do business with a
very young woman who was very beautiful. For some reason, the
occasion arose for them to go to his room, to fetch some documents.
Once in the room, she asked if she might use the restroom. She emerged
from the restroom stark naked. Now, what do you suppose Jason did? He
was very politically correct. He said, "Let's say you get dressed and we go
have some dinner."

She laughed and said this was the first time in her life she had to put her
clothes on to get a dinner.

We might ponder Jason's actions. We may see certain religious aspects of
this event. We may also see certain political aspects of this even. If you
disagree that there is a political dimension, then I have only one word of
rebuttal for you: Lewinsky (and perhaps the movie Fatal Attraction).

I doubt if I would have the forbearance and equanimity of Jason, to resist
such a temptation with such an immediate and compassionate response.

With regard to your desire to read Steinbeck's East of Eden with greater
understanding, perhaps you could read it and consult various essays and
interpretations on the Internet. Sparknotes.com is free and can be very
informative, for starters:

http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/eastofeden/

Regarding "Life of Pi" by Yann Martel, I was shocked to scour the net with
search engines, several months ago, and find so little on the significance
of the ships name, Tsimtsum, with regard to Luria and the mysticism of
the Kabala.

Take a peak at this preview sampling PDF from a site similar to
sparknotes.

Even the free sample is quite instructive:

http://lib.store.yahoo.com/lib/monk...eOfPiSample.pdf

There is so much we can learn for free just with a search engine. We
could read for hours upon hours.

Basically, I suppose, what we are talking about is a matter of
deconstruction.

Author like Patel or Steinbeck, has certain things in mind as he constructs
his novel. Steinbeck choosing the name "Adam Trask" seem rather
transparent; Adam, Eden, Eve.... and trask sounds like "task", which is
work, and part of the biblical story is that Adam is expelled from paradise
and must work and suffer "by the sweat of his brow" to eek out his
sustenance from a reluctant soil.

Each of us must decide how we wish to spend our free time and our
discretionary income. We must decide what our goals are, and why we
wish to pursue such goals; what do we hope to achieve should we be
successful in our endeavors?

Mark Twain once said something like, "the definition of great literature is
books that everyone wants to say they have read but no one wants to
spend the time reading" (paraphrased from memory).

I went through St. John's Great Book program, in Annapolis, MD, together
with one student in his thirties, Dan, an army veteran who had been
stationed in Korea. While overseas, he did a lot of reading and happened
to read Mortimer Adler's "How to Read a Book." (by the way, I found the
complete text of that book on line). Adler's book mentioned St. John's and
the great book program started by the University of Chicago. Dan told
me that one reason why he wanted to go through the St. John's program
was that he would like to read those 100 great books, but he realized that
he could never have the discipline and focus to read through them in his
spare time. Some of those books, like Ptolemy's Almagist on ancient
Astronomy, or Apollonius' treatise on conic sections, are quite daunting,
even for a full time student.

I was most grateful for the luxury of those four years at St. John's. After I
graduated in the late 60's, my father told me that the whole thing had
cost $16,000 for four years, including books, wine, cheese, movies. And
he had paid for it by selling some stocks which he had purchased for only
$500. And they had increased in value that much.

When I was a freshman, someone asked me if I wanted to make a few
dollars in the dining hall. I thanked them for the offer, but explained that I
had no need of money, and that I wanted to spend every possible
moment studying. Their reaction to my response revealed some disdain.
But, I had my agenda. I wanted to try to achieve something for myself.

+++++

http://toosmallforsupernova.org/method.htm

http://toosmallforsupernova.org/prolegommena.htm

http://toosmallforsupernova.org/historyofphilosophy.htm

+++++

Each year we were required to write a serious essay, and stand an oral
examination in front of a committee, in order to proceed to the next year
of study. Three of my four essays are on line at my website, if they are of
any help. They basically deal with methods of deconstruction and
interpretation. They are my own original thought, based on that St.John's
experience. Perhaps I am mistaken in some of my notions. I cannot say
that I arrived at irrefutable truth. If you correspond with me regarding
literature or religion, then all I have to offer you is myself, for better or
worse, and what I have thought and experiences these past fifty years. I
realize that this forum as strict rules, not only with regard to the
discussion, but also with regard to posting links to ones own site. You will
notice that I make no attempt in my profile to post links as part of my
signature. I post links to my three college essays as a convenience to
those who would like to see what St. Johns was like (and see my post
regarding the seminar on Baudelaire), and also, to save bandwidth and
disk space on this forum server, since it is impractical to repost such
essays here.

http://toosmallforsupernova.org/method.htm

http://toosmallforsupernova.org/prolegommena.htm

http://toosmallforsupernova.org/historyofphilosophy.htm

In some ways, I suppose, reading and analyzing novels and attempting to
deconstruct them like this is just like solving a crossword puzzle. Some
people are crossword puzzle addicts. If you were to decide, tomorrow, to
take up crossword puzzles as your pass-time, why, undoubtedly, there
would be many words you would not know, and you might by books
designed specifically for solving crossword puzzles. If you persisted in
your endeavor, then, as they years pass, you would get better and better,
until you could quickly solve some puzzles in record time without
consulting any outside source.

The distinctions between literature, prose, poetry, religion and philosophy
sometimes blur. Boundaries are hazy rather then sharply defined.

Take a look at this assortment of passages from Jorge Luis Borges,
Thomas Wolfe, the Bhagavad-Gita, et. al. regarding something which I
attempt to label as a spatio-temporal montage.

http://toosmallforsupernova.org/page019.htm

You know, Ion, if you read through this link, and study the various
passages from Borges and Wolfe and others, you will begin to see various
possibilities for appreciating the religious dimensions of literature as well
as the literary dimensions of religion.

What I am trying to do for you, in your dilemma, or for any member or
guest who stumbles upon this thread, is to give you of myself, my life, my
experiences, my subjective impressions. It is as if you are seated with
me, at this kitchen table, and we have a bottle of wine, or a pot of coffee,
and we are having a serious discussion.

There is no perfect substitute for personal associating with people who
have certain knowledge or experiences. In one of Salinger's novels,
perhaps it is "Catcher in the Rye", Holden Caufield says something like
"Wouldn't it be neat if you knew some great writer personally, and could
call them up anytime you like, and talk about stuff." One web site, which
discusses the less pleasant side of Salinger's personality, mentions that
passage, and then says that if you met the read Salinger today, you
would quickly be cured of any such desire.

I want to tell you a true story about a famous person who lived in the 20th
century and wrote many books. He was a religious leader, so I will not
say his name here out of respect for forum rules regarding religious
discussions. He was a very charismatic figure. People flocked from all
over the world just to have the experience of spending even a few
minutes with him. He was gracious and humble, and tried to accommodate
the wishes of visitors. One day, he agreed to mean some visitors in his
study. When they entered they found him reading his own books. They
were surprised and curious, and asked him why he reads his own books,
since, being their author, surely he must already know what they say. He
looked up and smiled and said, "My books are better that I am." There is
quite a bit of truth to what he said. Nietzsche once said, "I am one thing,
but my books are quite another matter."

It is rumored that Plato rewrote the first page of the Republic fifty times.
If you could have lunch tomorrow with Plato, you would probably jump at
the chance, if only for the novelty. But lunch with Plato, or dinner with
Sitaram (not that I am in their league), or breakfast with Salinger or
Pynchon or Kundera, would not be the same as what they wrote, for their
writings are a concentration a distillation of something that is in them.

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