literarydiscussions.myfreeforum.org

Sitaram · Site Admin Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 1079

Nina: To tell you the truth I feel giddy at the prospect of dialogue
with you, like a student at her first day of school. Is this strange?

Sitaram: In myspace... the Dalai Lama has a page. His space name is a
long word which, in Tibetan means, I AM JUST A MAN

http://www.myspace.com/jetsunjamphelngawanglo

Nina: I am now just like you once were, full of turmoil when it comes to
religious practice.

Sitaram: Carl Jung, psychologist, said that if one does not address the
issues of religion in life by mid-life at least, then they will suffer some
form of psychopathology.

Nina: Some background on me. my father was my main instructor
for a long time. he himself has a doctor in Divinity from LUSofLL. He
raised me Roman Catholic and taught me to never question the
infalliability of the church, but then counterproductively (to his teachings)
told me of all other religions.....

....anyway, he raised me the same way: Question everything
and anyone, but him. He was always right. You can imagine my inner
conflicts with religion now. He also was not a very good man.

Everything I knew about doctrine and faith I learned from
him.

Sitaram: I will tell you something interesting about Hans Kung's
great work "On Being Christian"

In chapter 3, I think.... early on in his book

he points out that 50 or 70 years before Columbus
sailed for America

there was the Roman Catholic council of Florence

and in that council it was firmly stated that there is NO SALVATION
outside the Roman Catholic Church, not even in Protestant Christian
denominations.

A mere 500 years later...

at Vatican II, in the 1960s
many encyclicals were published
but one, a very brief one
of only several pages
entitled "Nostra Aetatis" which means "Our Times"

states, that it is the duty of every Roman Catholic, not
SIMPLY to tolerate non christian religions

but to believe or understand that there is something
divine and saving (salvific) within those non Christian religions

so... that is an enormous change, shift in dogmatic/doctrinal position, in
only a few hundred years

Nina: when your followers are jumping ship because the captain
won't have this, or that in his ship you kinda have to revise policy

Sitaram: now... it is important to understand that in the early
60s, during vatican II, hans kung was considered a shining star of a
theologian, a young brillian talent

Sitaram: along with Ratsinger, who was another shining star...

Sitaram: I dont think it is accurate to say that the papacy declares things to gain or preserve popularity
If this were so, then they would approve many things
such as married clergy, birth control, abortion.... etc

and they would approve homosexuality...

if it was a popularity contest

Nina: accurate, or not, i have observed this on many occasions

Nina: no

Sitaram: or a matter of retaining members, numbers

Nina: not really. because they are not popular enough

Sitaram: So, give me some examples of doctrinal changes
motivated by a desire for popularity

since I imagine you were unaware of Nostra Aetatis
and the council of Florence until today

Nina: well, given the time frame of what you just stated (400-500
years) i'd say that was a drastic change.

Nina: yes you are right in your assumption
Nina: I am not a historian and I actually don't like history much at
all, but I.....

Sitaram: well... IF you compare Rome with Constantinople, and
the first 7 ecumenical councils from circa 350 Nicaea.... until around 900...

Sitaram: then Rome is a tremendous innovater of many new
and different things

Sitaram: which Eastern Orthodoxy (Greek/Russian) has
rejected/resisted

Nina: Can I ask you a hard question?

Sitaram: ok

Nina: I understand that it is in your belief to never dissuade anyone
from their spiritual path

Sitaram: As the rabbi Abraham Heschel (in his book "The

Prophets") states, "We must come to understand what it is that we see,

and not simply see only what we understand"

Sitaram: well, not exactly...

Nina: are you building a foundation, so that I may return to at least
to some sort of spiritual path

Sitaram: it is my belief not to force anyone in one particular

direction

Sitaram: but I often see the need to correct people in mistaken
notions

Nina: We don't see things as they are. We see things as we are.

-Anais Nin

Sitaram: Here is an interesting point.... some Catholics clamor for a

married clergy, pointing to the shortage of priests,... yet many Protestant

denominations, who encourage married clergy, experience the same

shortage of people who will take up the vocation

Nina: i am sure i have much to learn, hence my propositioning you

Sitaram: yes, good one from Anais Nin

Nina: mistaken in many things. when asked to label myself i can
only come up with "I believe"

Sitaram: you see.. it is understandable that you have had bitter

experiences in the catholic church, and in your upbringing.... so, you are

slanted in a certain direction... with regard to your perception of the

roman catholic church

This is human nature.... with regard to religions,
political systems, cultures, educational institutions, philosophies, and
genres of literature or poetry...

Nina: I was deeply devoutly religious. Then even when I came out
I still believed in Jesus as Saviour. Now i am what ppl would call a
"Cafeteria Catholic"

Nina: yes
Sitaram: right... a little of this, a little of that

Sitaram: no thanks, none of THAT
Sitaram: THERE was a funny joke, when Kennedy was running
for pres., the first catholic pres., people said he would take orders from
the Pope

The joke is, none of the other catholics listen to the
pope, why would kennedy

Nina: ha
Nina: that is funny

Sitaram: now... here i will point out something very interesting
with regards to politicians and the RC church

Nina: why do you think they elected Pope John Paul II to papacy?

Nina: a non roman, non "italian"

Sitaram: the RC church criticizes those senators and congressmen who
vote a certain way on issues touching physician assisted death, abortion,
birth control.... and threatens to excommunicate them

Nina: ok

Sitaram: well, here is an important point
There was a man with a beard , dr. Coop
who was surgeon general of USA
he was a very conservative Protestant
people assumed his conservatism would reflect in his rulings, pronouncements, as surgeon general
he surprised everyone by being very liberal on issues
such as birth control...
his point is that it IS NOT HIS PERSONAL CONVICTIONS,... but that he represents a CONSTITUENCY...

Nina: generally speaking It is hard to remain objective when you
have such deep religious conviction

Sitaram: so his duty is not to exercise his personal beliefs,...
but to be a faithful REPRESENTATIVE of the interests of those whom he
represents

Sitaram: so, when we understand the true nature and duty of a
political representative...

Nina: yes. sign of a good politician.

Sitaram: then we see that if the RC church is to rule at all
they should rule that a roman catholic must never hold political office
because... the duty of that office would mean to act on
behalf of the constituents.... and not on personal conviction

Nina: yes

Sitaram: in fact... i have been meaning to write / post about this matter
Sitaram: so, with your permission, i will change your screen
name,.... and post our edited dialogue,... if you dont mind.... to illustrate
these important issues

Sitaram: and, of course, it helps others...

Nina: of course

Nina: i had a preist once (my fave one of course) tell us in sermon
this:

Nina: he told us a story once of a woman who came to him in tears
Nina: she was asking for advice on what she should do about her
husband

Nina: the woman asks what she should do about her husband
going to another faith. he left the Catholic church to join some other
christian sect.

Nina: the priest then poses this question:

Nina: ha. yes.

Sitaram: yes... tell me about the priest

Nina: he asks her if he appears happy now and if he is praying
now?

Sitaram: you see, you must talk about all these things, to "get
them off your chest", and digest the experiences

Nina: yes i see
Nina: why am here talking to you

Nina: i crave intellectual conversation

Sitaram: and, your chatting with me helps me greatly too...

Nina: living in a city full of "beauty" and little intellect is difficult

Nina: does it? *raises eyebrow*

Nina: heh

Sitaram: since only in the context of dialogue may certain
themes emerge meaningfully

Nina: yes, so you are telling me you're taking something new from
this dialogue?going back to the story of the priest....he

Sitaram: it is very hard to find intellectual companionship in this
world, or even on the internet

Sitaram: each dialogue produces something new

Sitaram: there are cigar bars, sports bars, juice bars, gay
bars.. but no philosophy bars

Sitaram: my aunt had several children with her RC husband,
and then converted to catholicism, and had a wedding, so the priest said
to her "now go and have some legitimate children"

Nina: she stops her crying and answers yes. he never prayed
before and hated coming to church. he now attends it religiously (pardon
the pun).

Nina: oh god that is horrible
Nina: so irresponsible of him
Nina: anyway, the priest told the woman to leave her husband be.

Sitaram: yes
Nina: as you can imagine this sermon was the talk of the town for
weeks and the priest even left our church eventually

Nina: he actually did my first communinon. Fr. Finn.

Nina: very forward thinking

Sitaram: i see

Sitaram: you know... the russian orthodox, who went to the
aleutian indians in the alaskan territory,.... they simply set up their
monastery/church,.... and lived near the indians... not preaching like
missionaries

Sitaram: and slowly the indians/eskimos were curious and
attracted...

Sitaram: whereas, there was a protestant missionary couple,
who moved among the american indians, and lived for 20 years,....
lecturing and haranging them.... and not one single convert...

Sitaram: because they talked down to them, and made them
feel inferior

Nina: you attract more flies with honey
Nina: relationship with God is personal

Sitaram: one RC priest went to india, built an ashram, dressed
as an indian holy man...

Sitaram: and was making much progress..... but the church
stopped him as being too radical

Sitaram: because.... people need to relate to something in a
familiar context, which they can relate to

Nina: nothing made by man can be as personal
Nina: wow that's interesting
Sitaram: i visited an RC church which had several priests
visiting from India... but also several visting from Ireland...

Sitaram: well, the Indian priests, could easily relate to new age
ideas, which resemble hindu, sufi, etc.

Sitaram: and the irish would be repelled by the same

Nina: mhmm

Sitaram: it is amazing to see the difference...

Nina: it is
Sitaram: even Muslims who grow up in hindu regions, absorb
something, and are slightly more hindu flavored in their islam

Sitaram: one fellow told me an adventure of the prophet
Muhammed which he believed, and it would have come straight out of the
Mahabharat

Sitaram: such a story would be unthinkable among Saudis

Nina: i particularly liked the story you told on the man punished for
exclaiming "I AM ALLAH!"

Sitaram: yes the first Sufi martyr, Hallaj

who believed he had achieved unity with god while in
this life

Nina: i love the idea

Nina: i love God

Nina: but God is many things to all

Sitaram: you see, the very spiritual sufis, and Rumi, and those
Bahai,who arose in Iran...

Nina: and all to many things

Sitaram: they were reacting against the dry legalism of
orthodox sunni shia

Sitaram: which are more concerned with orthopraxy (correct
action) than orthodoxy (correct belief)

Nina: ooh i like those words
Sitaram: i have a wonderful book here... hard to find... by a
scholar at S.U.N.Y. (they specialize in unusual religion studies)...

Sitaram: and it is a study of how HERESY forms in Islam,
Judaism, Christianity, and Buddism

Sitaram: Buddhism

Sitaram: it is his life work

Sitaram: to study heresiology

Sitaram: in widely different, unrelated religions

Nina: response to this statement: Jesus was a mystic.
Sitaram: and at the Univ. of Chicago, there is a 5 volume hard
cover study on FUNDAMENTALISMS

Sitaram: it would be really be good if you could get Jaroslav
Pelikan's 5 volume History and Development of Christian Doctrine

Nina: it would be
Nina: is that your response?
Sitaram: oh... the phrase "Jesus is a mystic" has little
meaning... little value... too vague... no value comes from such a
discussion

Nina: no value
Nina: ok
Sitaram: "mystics discuss Jesus" has more meaning

Sitaram: you see.... it means nothing to speculate about what
jesus was, or is...

Sitaram: as if it is an absolute
Sitaram: i mean, iron is a metal, helium is an inert gas
Nina: no i didn't say it as an absolute
Sitaram: it is meaningful to say what Jesus is to you...
Sitaram: or to me... or to mother theresa, or to gandhi
Nina: i remind you that I still view Jesus in a Catholic sense
Sitaram: or, what Jesus is in Roman Catholicism...
Sitaram: or in Islam
Sitaram: these are dogmatic topics, which can be discussed in a
certain context

Sitaram: or, one can read Hans Kung, and say what Jesus is for
Kung...

Sitaram: but Kung is banned by Rome from teaching

Sitaram: so, one can speak of why Kung is outlawed, and that
is meaningful

Sitaram: it is very vague to speak of what a mystic is.... much
less who is a mystic

Nina: ok
Sitaram: mystery comes from a Greek word meaning hidden,
secret

Sitaram: metaphysical originally denotes a book by aristotle
which was traditionally placed AFTER the book called physics (nature)

Sitaram: and then... those words evolve different meanings in
different contexts, for different people, as the centuries pass

Sitaram: we may look meaningfully at Rev. Howard Thurmond
(friend of Gandhi, teacher to Martin Luther King), and speak of his
protestant theology which is "mystical" in comparison to his contemporary
protestants... who disdained him

Sitaram: His fellow protestants might have spoken of building a
soup kitchen.... something practical

Sitaram: whereas, for Thurmond, and for Gandhi, the voluntary
undertaking of suffering, personal suffering (such as Gandhi's fast almost
to death), might work some benefit for others,

Sitaram: on the one hand, social activists can see only material
benefits, such as soup kitchens.... while someone with a more mystical
theology, might see a benefit which could be worked by fasting, or
martyrdom

Sitaram: you can take a look at my essay, "Good Evil and
Ideas which Transform" to get an idea of one way that someone, such as
perhaps Hans Kung, might explore the question "What is Jesus"

Sitaram: also, try to see the old movie "The Razor's Edge",
based on the novel by Somerset Maugham

Sitaram: here is a link to what I wrote on The Razor's Edge

http://literarydiscussions.myfree...opic776.php&highlight=maugham

Sitaram: here is a link to

http://literarydiscussions.myfree...ic437.php&highlight=transform

Good Evil and Ideas which transform

Sitaram: you see,.... even if I were to tell you "Jesus is this, or
Jesus is that".... or "Jesus is not this, jesus is not that"... it would have no
meaning or value for you.... not if someone else tells you

Sitaram: but only if you subjectively arrive at it yourself

Sitaram: that is why , in the Gospels, Jesus never gives anyone
a direct answer...

Sitaram: he tells one man, "You are not far from the Kingdom"

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